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Saddle Death… Stay safe out there.

Fl Canopy Stalker said:
The theory is some people can survive up to 14 hours inverted. I’m assuming those people are super skinny and fit. But 14 hours is the maximum estimated survival time based on studies
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anyone know if you should be contracting your muscles/core if stuck upside down? is it like a fighter pilot fighting g-force or would contracting actually act like a tourniquet and make it worse?
 
raisins said:
anyone know if you should be contracting your muscles/core if stuck upside down? is it like a fighter pilot fighting g-force or would contracting actually act like a tourniquet and make it worse?
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I’d assume flexing your muscles would make it more difficult to breath but I’ve never tried it upside down.
 
What happened to Dane is really sad and my thoughts and prayers go out to his family.

Since reading about this tragic event I found myself wondering if I could right myself if I was to somehow become inverted while in a saddle. I do own and use (sporadically) an inversion table but that has handles which allows me to flip back to an upright position.

Yesterday, after target practice from height I rappelled down until I was three feet off the ground and inverted myself. I kept my legs spread with the bridge running between them so my feet were facing the sky and my head to the ground. When I let my legs bend at the knees my upper body rose to almost 45 degrees from being horizontal. From there it was very easy to grab my bridge and pull myself upright. The next few tries being inverted I kept both of my legs on one side of the bridge. Doing it this way caused some rotation, meaning the bridge slide through the carabiner so that there was a long side and a short side bridge leg. This caused me to hang sideways, with one hip pointed to the sky and the other towards the ground. My body was at about a 45 degree downward angle as if I was diving sideways into a pool. I found righting myself from this position was easier if I first twisted to get the bridge centered between my legs and then dropped my legs to swing my torso skyward while grabbing the bridge to pull myself back up to a seated postion. For reference, I am 52 years old and have kept myself in decent shape always opting to stay fit and lean rather than accept a dad bod as I age. I did have my knife and phone with me and three family members 30 yards away in the house in case things did go wrong.

With respect to Dane and his family, I don't believe the climbing method or equipment was at fault here. It seems like some are looking to place the blame anywhere but where it should be placed. None of us know exactly what took place and more than likely we never will. It's been said many times over the years that what we do is inherently dangerous, no matter how we decide to get up and down a tree. Everyone should take an honest assessment of yourself to determine if you have the physical ability, capability and mental awareness to undertake a life threatening activity. And be truthful! Folks with medical conditions or physical disabilities/limitations should not put their life and their families future in jeapardy all because they want to play in a tree. At my job safety is the number one priority and we preach it daily but there are still accidents and injuries. Why you ask? The reason is that even with all the safeguards in place, even with all the safety gear available and all the training that is given, many folks don't understand that safety begins with the individual, that means YOU.

Everyone, please think about what you are doing out there and think about your family. Is the risk you're taking worth it?
 
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Vtbow said:
The originators of the videos do not know the audience's skill level they are teaching.
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I can help with that.

Roughly a third of US citizens are classified as overweight.

Roughly another third is considered clinically obese.

69% of US hunters are 40 or older.

Saddle hunting really didn't hit its stride in popularity until less than 5 years ago.

So, the average saddle hunter is fat, old, and has no clue what he's doing.

Not trying to offend anybody. That's just the numbers. Make of it what you will.
 
Nutterbuster said:
I can help with that.

Roughly a third of US citizens are classified as overweight.

Roughly another third is considered clinically obese.

69% of US hunters are 40 or older.

Saddle hunting really didn't hit its stride in popularity until less than 5 years ago.

So, the average saddle hunter is fat, old, and has no clue what he's doing.

Not trying to offend anybody. That's just the numbers. Make of it what you will.
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40 isn't old bro LOL, 5 years is a long time for a fad and I'm considered over weight at 5'6" and 160lbs but anyone that know me can tell you I'm not overweight and more fit than most people in there mid 40's LOL but besides all that you do have good points.
 
CooterBrown said:
40 isn't old bro LOL, 5 years is a long time for a fad and I'm considered over weight at 5'6" and 160lbs but anyone that know me can tell you I'm not overweight and more fit than most people in there mid 40's LOL but besides all that you do have good points.
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Let’s be fair here cooter, 40 isn’t 25 either. I’m 40 and I can tell you now, 24 to 32 year old me would blow 40 year old me out of the water when it comes to physical activity. If you don’t agree either you weren’t active in your 20’s or you’re lying to yourself. 40 ain’t old but it’s not young as spring time and quick to recovery anymore either.
At 5’6” and 160 you’d be in the 25% bmi which is the very bottom of the “overweight” category and if you dropped 6 lbs you would be clinically ideal weight. Nutterbuster is not far off with any of this. 5 years is how long saddles have hit the popular stride but that doesn’t mean guys have 5 years experience. Most picked it up a season or two ago and how many hunters truly practice climbing year round? It takes 4 to 5 years working 8 hours a day and at least 2000 hours a year to complete an apprenticeship to be a qualified tradesmen. The average hunter goes out less than 60 times a year for a total of less than 600 hours and many only climb up and down a tree once or twice that day. It’s not like it’s 5 years of real experience. That’s not an apples to apples comparison. Statistically most semi accidents occur to people with 5 years or less experience. 5 years is an inexperienced hunter if you compare it to any other real world scenario.
 
Fl Canopy Stalker said:
Let’s be fair here cooter, 40 isn’t 25 either. I’m 40 and I can tell you now, 24 to 32 year old me would blow 40 year old me out of the water when it comes to physical activity. If you don’t agree either you weren’t active in your 20’s or you’re lying to yourself. 40 ain’t old but it’s not young as spring time and quick to recovery anymore either.
At 5’6” and 160 you’d be in the 25% bmi which is the very bottom of the “overweight” category and if you dropped 6 lbs you would be clinically ideal weight. Nutterbuster is not far off with any of this. 5 years is how long saddles have hit the popular stride but that doesn’t mean guys have 5 years experience. Most picked it up a season or two ago and how many hunters truly practice climbing year round? It takes 4 to 5 years working 8 hours a day and at least 2000 hours a year to complete an apprenticeship to be a qualified tradesmen. The average hunter goes out less than 60 times a year for a total of less than 600 hours and many only climb up and down a tree once or twice that day. It’s not like it’s 5 years of real experience. That’s not an apples to apples comparison. Statistically most semi accidents occur to people with 5 years or less experience. 5 years is an inexperienced hunter if you compare it to any other real world scenario.
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Yes he does have good points. As I stated in my post. I was just trying to give some perspective. I for sure aint what I was at 25 but I'm sure not rolling over yet either. I have been "overweight" since I was 16. The BMI charts are only a good reference.
 
CooterBrown said:
Yes he does have good points. As I stated in my post. I was just trying to give some perspective. I for sure aint what I was at 25 but I'm sure not rolling over yet either. I have been "overweight" since I was 16. The BMI charts are only a good reference.
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Correct and not a fair reference either. At my height, I’m not considered overweight but I can tell you I am over weight. Lol
 
Nutterbuster said:
I can help with that.

Roughly a third of US citizens are classified as overweight.

Roughly another third is considered clinically obese.

69% of US hunters are 40 or older.

Saddle hunting really didn't hit its stride in popularity until less than 5 years ago.

So, the average saddle hunter is fat, old, and has no clue what he's doing.

Not trying to offend anybody. That's just the numbers. Make of it what you will.
Click to expand...
Assuming this is meant somewhat as a joke, but I would argue saddle hunters are more likely to fall into the 1/3-2/3 of the population that are not obese/overweight. Also would argue the average age of bowhunters vs all hunters is lower, although I am over the age of 40. Finally, I doubt the average saddle hunter doesn't know what he is doing. I am on year two of saddle hunting and year one of one-sticking & rappelling and can say I feel safer now hunting from a tree than any other year hunting from a ladder stand, hanging stand, etc. I assume like most on this forum, that's the result of spending hours learning about equipment, technique, and practicing before ever hunting from a saddle. I believe what you are describing is called an "outlier." There was a study that showed those riding a bicycle while wearing a helmet were less risk averse (rode faster, etc.) than those not wearing helmets. I think we have to be careful not to place too much confidence in our equipment. As @slonstdy described, the equipment is only as safe as the individual using it. Like all sports there is a level of risk, and as the number of "exposures" increases (i.e., the sport grows) there are going to be more "outliers." (I could lose a couple pounds though.)
 
wihunter50 said:
Assuming this is meant somewhat as a joke, but I would argue saddle hunters are more likely to fall into the 1/3-2/3 of the population that are not obese/overweight. Also would argue the average age of bowhunters vs all hunters is lower, although I am over the age of 40. Finally, I doubt the average saddle hunter doesn't know what he is doing. I am on year two of saddle hunting and year one of one-sticking & rappelling and can say I feel safer now hunting from a tree than any other year hunting from a ladder stand, hanging stand, etc. I assume like most on this forum, that's the result of spending hours learning about equipment, technique, and practicing before ever hunting from a saddle. I believe what you are describing is called an "outlier." There was a study that showed those riding a bicycle while wearing a helmet were less risk averse (rode faster, etc.) than those not wearing helmets. I think we have to be careful not to place too much confidence in our equipment. As @slonstdy described, the equipment is only as safe as the individual using it. Like all sports there is a level of risk, and as the number of "exposures" increases (i.e., the sport grows) there are going to be more "outliers." (I could lose a couple pounds though.)
Click to expand...

you're right that you can't just apply averages over a general population to a specific subgroup

but

you might be judging things too much based off yourself and folks here
 
wihunter50 said:
Assuming this is meant somewhat as a joke, but I would argue saddle hunters are more likely to fall into the 1/3-2/3 of the population that are not obese/overweight. Also would argue the average age of bowhunters vs all hunters is lower, although I am over the age of 40. Finally, I doubt the average saddle hunter doesn't know what he is doing. I am on year two of saddle hunting and year one of one-sticking & rappelling and can say I feel safer now hunting from a tree than any other year hunting from a ladder stand, hanging stand, etc. I assume like most on this forum, that's the result of spending hours learning about equipment, technique, and practicing before ever hunting from a saddle. I believe what you are describing is called an "outlier." There was a study that showed those riding a bicycle while wearing a helmet were less risk averse (rode faster, etc.) than those not wearing helmets. I think we have to be careful not to place too much confidence in our equipment. As @slonstdy described, the equipment is only as safe as the individual using it. Like all sports there is a level of risk, and as the number of "exposures" increases (i.e., the sport grows) there are going to be more "outliers." (I could lose a couple pounds though.)
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I think @Nutterbuster s numbers and comments are more on par than what we all want to believe. 5 years ago, I would say they were way off from this specific site/community, but now that saddlehunting has broken into the main stream and there are dozens of manufacturers, hundreds of youtube channels talking about it, and mainstream recognition of it, the general population is what we are really talking about. Look at the reach of a single popular youtube channel.

I dont think the helmet study is a good parallel or honestly a good study to apply to safety in general. Societal norms and acceptance changes over time. When many of us were growing up, we weren't wearing helmets. My kids have to have a helmet on the second they sit on something with wheels. They will know no difference (mentally) as they grow up and will not subconsciously(or consciously) make decisions to take more risks or be more risk adverse based on the helmet. Do people drive faster because they have a seatbelt on? No, they just have a significantly less chance of killing themselves in an accident.
 
wihunter50 said:
Assuming this is meant somewhat as a joke, but I would argue saddle hunters are more likely to fall into the 1/3-2/3 of the population that are not obese/overweight. Also would argue the average age of bowhunters vs all hunters is lower, although I am over the age of 40. Finally, I doubt the average saddle hunter doesn't know what he is doing. I am on year two of saddle hunting and year one of one-sticking & rappelling and can say I feel safer now hunting from a tree than any other year hunting from a ladder stand, hanging stand, etc. I assume like most on this forum, that's the result of spending hours learning about equipment, technique, and practicing before ever hunting from a saddle. I believe what you are describing is called an "outlier." There was a study that showed those riding a bicycle while wearing a helmet were less risk averse (rode faster, etc.) than those not wearing helmets. I think we have to be careful not to place too much confidence in our equipment. As @slonstdy described, the equipment is only as safe as the individual using it. Like all sports there is a level of risk, and as the number of "exposures" increases (i.e., the sport grows) there are going to be more "outliers." (I could lose a couple pounds though.)
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Based on the number of size 3 saddles (38 waist and above) that I sell each month, I would say you’re wrong about assuming most saddle hunters falling into the 1/3rd. We sell as many size 3’s as we do size 2’s which is 33-37” to date I’ve sold less than 2 dozen size 1 saddles (32 and under) and at least 3 of the size ones were for ladies who are typically smaller framed than us dudes. You are correct though both about bicycle PPE as related to risk and that saddle injuries and death will increase as exposure to saddle hunting increases BUT it doesn’t have to be disproportionately increased. That is where it falls on us to be safer.
 
wihunter50 said:
I would argue saddle hunters are more likely to fall into the 1/3-2/3 of the population that are not obese/overweight. Also would argue the average age of bowhunters vs all hunters is lower, although I am over the age of 40. Finally, I doubt the average saddle hunter doesn't know what he is doing.
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As somebody who has talked to a LOT of saddlehunters, on and off this forum, professionally for a spell...I maintain my stance. Maybe what you're saying is true for the forum members, particularly the guys who are making the strongest signal. But as it's gotten more popular the demographics of saddle hunters increasingly look like the demographics of the average hunter.

Part of the reason I've slowed my role talking about saddle gear is because I increasingly realized this after talking to people here on the forum, on social media, on the phone, and in-person. Particularly watching people climb at demos. 3-4 years ago I went to a big event and watched gaff-outs, wild edge steps come uncammed, aider mishaps, hitches and other devices jam...the works.

I also took a dose of my own medicine. Shelved my carbon fiber bolts and went back to steel. Bought a ground chair. Bought sticks with no aiders and a short step distance.
 
Fl Canopy Stalker said:
Based on the number of size 3 saddles (38 waist and above) that I sell each month, I would say you’re wrong about assuming most saddle hunters falling into the 1/3rd. We sell as many size 3’s as we do size 2’s which is 33-37” to date I’ve sold less than 2 dozen size 1 saddles (32 and under) and at least 3 of the size ones were for ladies who are typically smaller framed than us dudes. You are correct though both about bicycle PPE as related to risk and that saddle injuries and death will increase as exposure to saddle hunting increases BUT it doesn’t have to be disproportionately increased. That is where it falls on us to be safer.
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There are a couple flaws in your post: 1. you are equating saddle size to a classification system using height and weight to calculate body mass, and 2. saddle size will be larger than actual waist size since it will be worn over multiple layers of clothing. Based on a normal distribution we should expect a bell shaped curve in terms of body weight percentage amongst saddle hunters, however, this is an assumption that the survey may disprove. The classification system that categorizes individuals based on height and weight is flawed because it does not differentiate between lean mass or fat mass, and therefore should not be used to equate to fitness level or any other measure of health. As an example, at 5'6" and 160 lbs I am considered "overweight" (32" waist), but I can still see my "6 pack" at 52 y/o (although not as clearly).
 
wihunter50 said:
There are a couple flaws in your post: 1. you are equating saddle size to a classification system using height and weight to calculate body mass, and 2. saddle size will be larger than actual waist size since it will be worn over multiple layers of clothing. Based on a normal distribution we should expect a bell shaped curve in terms of body weight percentage amongst saddle hunters, however, this is an assumption that the survey may disprove. The classification system that categorizes individuals based on height and weight is flawed because it does not differentiate between lean mass or fat mass, and therefore should not be used to equate to fitness level or any other measure of health. As an example, at 5'6" and 160 lbs I am considered "overweight" (32" waist), but I can still see my "6 pack" at 52 y/o (although not as clearly).
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Correct but also incorrect. I base my saddles to fit based on Jean waist size which several saddle builders are also doing (hence many recommend sizing up if you’re at the top of the waist chart size and also in an area where you heavily layer up.
2 I haven’t met many people that were waist size 40 and underweight.
3 while there is a conceivable difference in lean mass and fat mass, it’s still mass. Your heart still works harder to supply blood and oxygen to the tissue. Your bones still carry extra weight and your gear can’t tell the difference in it if you fall. Weight is weight. Being in shape is completely different than how much you weigh. For reference most body builders and professional wrestlers die of heart attacks or heart disease around the same age and rate as the average obese person who doesn’t make lifestyle changes. One can argue that is due to steroids or other things such as weight fluctuations but in other sports where steroid use is common as well as weight control, the average life span (mortality rate) is lower aka they live longer because they keep their weight down. I agree with you that being a Lean heavy is different than a fat heavy but your heart, bones and hunting gear don’t exactly see it that way. Just some food for thought
 
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