Saddle Death… Stay safe out there.

[JSEXTON23]

Complicated or not, pick up this video starting at 17:10 and tell me a guy who purchased a new saddle less than a month ago should be attempting it. This IS experienced climber-level stuff.

Nobody is highlighting the foot in the loop factor here. Once you cinch that foot up, if you slip and go inverted, it’s game over for a person not trained and/or physically capable of advanced rope climbing techniques. You’ve loaded that friction hitch and brought it closer to your bridge connection point. You’re now reliant on your free foot/leg to assist you in flipping back upright, which is also above your head.

I believe we have gotten far removed from the purpose of deer hunting. We’re shooting critters, not mountaineering. I, for one, will be moving back to a full body fall arrest system, with lineman loops. I’ve already made the move back to hang on stand hunting, and will likely be doing more and more ground hunting. I have a wife and daughter I love, and whom love me. Chasing weight and cool gear gadgets just simply isn’t worth the risk of killing a deer.

My advice to all: if you’re interested in rope climbing as a hobby or activity, go learn it from a certified professional and consider keeping it in its place. Perhaps deer hunting isn’t that place.

 

[Vtbow]

What can and should be concluded from all this discussion is something I have tried to hit home for a while and I believe has landed on deaf ears:

Technical skills which can lead to yours or others death or serious injury should not be taught through videos, especially as a primary learning source. Experiential education and on-site, hands on learning from trained individuals is the only right way.

The originators of the videos do not know the audience's skill level they are teaching...it could be someone who never has had a harness on in their life, or a 5.10 climber looking to hone their skills. In person lessons can be tweaked and changed for audiences, or prequisite skills tests required. I don't believe you will find a certified instructor "teaching" this level of technical skills in a youtube video. It would be negligent of them to do so in a non-controlled environment where they can't immediately correct their students.

Sticks may not be safer for someone who is skilled and knowledgeable, but the average individual already has the skills to climb a ladder...they have a lot less new skills to learn to climb and descend in the safest manner possible.

 

[bodark]

Nobody is highlighting the foot in the loop factor here. Once you cinch that foot up, if you slip and go inverted, it’s game over for a person not trained and/or physically capable of advanced rope climbing techniques. You’ve loaded that friction hitch and brought it closer to your bridge connection point. You’re now reliant on your free foot/leg to assist you in flipping back upright, which is also above your head.

I believe we have gotten far removed from the purpose of deer hunting. We’re shooting critters, not mountaineering. I, for one, will be moving back to a full body fall arrest system, with lineman loops. I’ve already made the move back to hang on stand hunting, and will likely be doing more and more ground hunting. I have a wife and daughter I love, and whom love me. Chasing weight and cool gear gadgets just simply isn’t worth the risk of killing a deer.

My advice to all: if you’re interested in rope climbing as a hobby or activity, go learn it from a certified professional and consider keeping it in its place. Perhaps deer hunting isn’t that place.

Couldn’t have said it better myself.

 

[gcr0003]

@Red Beard you mentioned in a previous post that you no longer rappel down. How are you getting down now? What have I missed?

@gcr0003 as far as the JRB methods, I am completely baffled as to why this occurred as again, statistically the highest risks occur while climbing or descending. Which historically ( I believe ) are based on standard tree stand systems I.e. sticks, ladders, climbers. Since you’re always connected in the JRB methods my assumption is you’re automatically, always safer, statistically speaking.

One thing I was able to do was have the NYS DEC add saddles to their annual, Elevated Hunting Incident Report. So far no saddle related incidents for the first reporting year of 2021. Although in this particular incident, it will be important to differentiate saddle related falls from climbing system related falls or incidents. Technically, Dane’s saddle didn’t most likely fail him, the climbing system most likely did.

I think what has occurred Is that by mitigating some risks associated with climbing trees by incorporating rope climbing, we have introduced new risks or glossed over some of the risks that still persist. This is common for many experts, they master their craft and then get so comfortable with what they’re doing that they forget some of the protocols that made them masters in the first place.

Additionally, we have people pushing that nothing in their gear or system stinks. We should be honest about the shortcomings of our gear and our methods. That’s the only way can help others make informed decisions.

While I acknowledge that at the end of the day it is the individual’s responsibility, I do think as a group of hunters, tree climbers, and saddle gear enthusiasts we should want to help and take care of our own. Which I think we do for the most part.

 

[Sticknstring88]

Nobody is highlighting the foot in the loop factor here. Once you cinch that foot up, if you slip and go inverted, it’s game over for a person not trained and/or physically capable of advanced rope climbing techniques. You’ve loaded that friction hitch and brought it closer to your bridge connection point. You’re now reliant on your free foot/leg to assist you in flipping back upright, which is also above your head.

I believe we have gotten far removed from the purpose of deer hunting. We’re shooting critters, not mountaineering. I, for one, will be moving back to a full body fall arrest system, with lineman loops. I’ve already made the move back to hang on stand hunting, and will likely be doing more and more ground hunting. I have a wife and daughter I love, and whom love me. Chasing weight and cool gear gadgets just simply isn’t worth the risk of killing a deer.

My advice to all: if you’re interested in rope climbing as a hobby or activity, go learn it from a certified professional and consider keeping it in its place. Perhaps deer hunting isn’t that place.

Amen to this.


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[wyetterp]

How are you supposed to be able to unhook someone in that situation, that is using that method?

I keep my system as basic & simple as possible. Even so, I feel the need to go out at ground level & see if I can correct myself in a worst case, but more importantly, to see if someone else could even help me.

I still think there is just way too much stuff going on with the jrb methods. As a newby, I tried absorbing all of it & I was subscribed to the channel to try & learn some of it. When you're drinking through the fire hose to learn, it's heavily pushed as being so much safer, easier, & lighter. I don't see any of that now. Thing is, I didn't realize that till floating around here more. There are so many more ways that are basic, simplified, lighter & safer. Imo it's overly complicated & has too many areas to provide too many problems from even minor mistakes. It's definitely not for beginners as it is being pushed as. It's a very advanced level & not for a newbie with no climbing or arborist experience. Honestly I feel like it's become a, hey let me figure out a way to make a name for myself by doing everything in a different way. Literally everything I see through that system is a modified, complicated version of what can be done in a way simpler fashion. Even the dang jrb throwball technique is more complicated than it needs to be. I just don't get it.

We're only trying to get to 15-30ft to kill an animal. There are several other simple & safe ways to do it.

 

[Crawdaddy4]

Given that this is an accidental death with no apparent cause of death, it likely resulted in at least a limited autopsy (open the chest and remove the brain). If this happened in a county with a medical examiner, then that person is a fellowship trained forensic pathologist (ie an actual physician). I've conducted over 30 autopsies myself and seen over 100 forensic autopsies, and I can say pretty definitely that if a stroke, pulmonary embolism, or heart attack happened before the fall then the Pathologist will find evidence of it. Betting odds are good that if another background medical condition caused a fall there will be evidence of it. But positional asphyxia is a diagnosis of exclusion and can never be definitely proved as a cause of death.

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Foremost, I can't imagine the loss this family is currently having to navigate. The thought of going out to engage in one of my hobbies and not coming back is just unimaginable. My thoughts, prayers, and support are definitely being extended to this family!

I understand an inherent risk is present in any activity that is executed in an elevated position, but I'm a firm believer in a healthy risk/reward balance. Not being a professionally trained climber in an arborist or rope-access capacity, I'd personally NEVER attempt that JRB method. I'm 42 years old with 4 kids and a wife that I/they are eager for me to come home to them. I will just keep packing my climbing sticks into the woods as my ascending/descending method!

@GravityTension - Based on some of your statements and experience with autopsies, I am presuming you are/were a licensed medical professional? Please confirm or deny as it will validate your response to my next question - as I am uninterested in conjecture or hyperbole on this matter. What kind of time exposure could one expect to remain inverted prior to postural asphyxiation? Under normal circumstances, would you expect someone to experience syncope prior to asphyxiation? I understand there are a myriad of health variables that may contribute to some of these estimations, but would appreciate your general thoughts.

 

[Zoa]

I don't believe you will find a certified instructor "teaching" this level of technical skills in a youtube video. It would be negligent of them to do so in a non-controlled environment where they can't immediately correct their students.

100% agree. I am a challenge course facilitator, so not directly applicable, but you would certainly never catch me or any of mine doing that. I have not heard of this JRB climbing before this thread (and again, challenge courses are a different beast, so apples/oranges), but I still think, in spite of of all the sketchy gear and practices promoted by irresponsible saddle hunting influencers, that human error is still the most dangerous thing involved in climbing a tree.

 

[hokiehunter373]

This has nothing to do with the method of climbing or descent in this incident but one thing almost everyone on here can do to help protect themselves in case of an emergency is to send someone you know your coordinates when you're hunting. I realize it wouldn't have helped this gentleman but it could help you. Every hunt I go on, as soon as I get to the base of the tree that I decide I'm going to climb, I send my wife my location in iMessages. Then when I'm up the tree I let her know I'm safe. If there's ever a point during that hunt that she would feel something is off, she has my exact gps coordinates that her, one of my hunting buddies, or EMS could go straight to. I'd recommend everyone do the same.

 

[Plebe]

Nobody is highlighting the foot in the loop factor here. Once you cinch that foot up, if you slip and go inverted, it’s game over for a person not trained and/or physically capable of advanced rope climbing techniques. You’ve loaded that friction hitch and brought it closer to your bridge connection point. You’re now reliant on your free foot/leg to assist you in flipping back upright, which is also above your head.

I believe we have gotten far removed from the purpose of deer hunting. We’re shooting critters, not mountaineering. I, for one, will be moving back to a full body fall arrest system, with lineman loops. I’ve already made the move back to hang on stand hunting, and will likely be doing more and more ground hunting. I have a wife and daughter I love, and whom love me. Chasing weight and cool gear gadgets just simply isn’t worth the risk of killing a deer.

My advice to all: if you’re interested in rope climbing as a hobby or activity, go learn it from a certified professional and consider keeping it in its place. Perhaps deer hunting isn’t that place.

It's been suggested that Dane was on rappel, which in John's system doesn't utilize a foot loop.

None of us have information from firsthand sources, so it's possible Dane was not on rappel and was in his Garda loop. idk.

John demonstrates hitch failure sliding to his Garda hitch. He doesn't come close to inverted. (Around 8min in)

That's not to say Dane had the same lengths of lines and system geometry, or not. Or that physical factors didn't come to bear. Or, who knows.

We're speculating on speculation.

From what I've read, we don't know specifics of Dane's setup, unless I missed that info. I've only seen he purchased a Drey w/ Killdeer harness and assume that's what he was using at the time of the incident.

It's good to poke holes in our systems, look for failure points, develop solutions. If you go out and try to simulate this failure let us know.

 

[Crawdaddy4]

This has nothing to do with the method of climbing or descent in this incident but one thing almost everyone on here can do to help protect themselves in case of an emergency is to send someone you know your coordinates when you're hunting. I realize it wouldn't have helped this gentleman but it could help you. Every hunt I go on, as soon as I get to the base of the tree that I decide I'm going to climb, I send my wife my location in iMessages. Then when I'm up the tree I let her know I'm safe. If there's ever a point during that hunt that she would feel something is off, she has my exact gps coordinates that her, one of my hunting buddies, or EMS could go straight to. I'd recommend everyone do the same.

Good reminder! Always prudent (IMO) for someone to be aware of where you are and time-frame expectations of your return/check-ins.

 

[HuumanCreed]

Mrs. Purcell detailed on Facebook that he was testing out his new Dryad saddle for 1st or 2nd time. That he was only a few feet from the ground. The other hunter was actually able to try to push him up a little to try to release pressure but was not able to. That's why she recommends carrying knife. Because at that height it cutting make sense.

Hmm....all speculations here. But if he was using the Drey's harness for any type of rope climbing, l highly recommend against that.

 

[HuumanCreed]

Ok this is hitting very close to home. Because I just placed an order for a Hammock from Drey to use with a Black Diamond Momentum Harness. Wife is going to freak out. If he was trying to rappel with the Drey fully deployed, it open up a lot of possible scenarios.

 

[gcr0003]

The knee jerk reaction to say oh someone died rope climbing therefore climbing sticks are safe is a trap that I don’t think we should fall into. ALL climbing methods have risks and they should ALL be discussed and people should be aware of them. Being significantly overweight, having underlying health conditions, or being significantly older are additional risks to ALL of these climbing methods, and is not specific to rope climbing or JRB.

 

[thedutchtouch]

Mrs. Purcell detailed on Facebook that he was testing out his new Dryad saddle for 1st or 2nd time. That he was only a few feet from the ground. The other hunter was actually able to try to push him up a little to try to release pressure but was not able to. That's why she recommends carrying knife. Because at that height it cutting make sense.

Hmm....all speculations here. But if he was using the Drey's harness for any type of rope climbing, l highly recommend against that.

Do you mean that climbing with the drey itself deployed? Or climbing with the drey in the pouch and hooked up to the killdeer harness? I ask because I thought that killdeer style harness was more similar to a rock climbing harness and therefore actually better for rope climbing than a "standard" saddle with leg loops? Please correct me if I am getting this backwards.

 

[HuumanCreed]

Do you mean that climbing with the drey itself deployed? Or climbing with the drey in the pouch and hooked up to the killdeer harness? I ask because I thought that killdeer style harness was more similar to a rock climbing harness and therefore actually better for rope climbing than a "standard" saddle with leg loops? Please correct me if I am getting this backwards.

So I have test the Drey system. The killdeer looks like a RCH, but IMHO nowhere near as comfortable as an official one. The idea is a minimalist safety device, which it meet that criteria. But as a RCH it is not comfortable at all. Its basically straps without any type of padding to be honest.

I'm saying if he was trying to deploy or put away the hammock, but slip from his platform/roc setup. There is a lot more material to get tangle up in then it might be possible to get into a situation that he cannot free himself out of.

Against, this is just me and my brainstorming. I have no plan to cancel my Hammock order at all.

 

[thedutchtouch]

So I have test the Drey system. The killdeer looks like a RCH, but IMHO nowhere near as comfortable as an official one. The idea is a minimalist safety device, which it meet that criteria. But as a RCH it is not comfortable at all. Its basically straps without any type of padding to be honest.

I'm saying if he was trying to deploy or put away the hammock, but slip from his platform/roc setup. There is a lot more material to get tangle up in then it might be possible to get into a situation that he cannot free himself out of.

Against, this is just me and my brainstorming. I have no plan to cancel my Hammock order at all.

Gotcha. I was planning to try the killdeer to see if it's more comfortable than my method with leg straps. The hammock part I'm sold on, just figuring out if it's going redundantly on my method or on the killdeer... I'm not super concerned with comfort when climbing, it's a few minutes, half hour at most if it's a really crazy tree. Comfort at height is what I'm looking for, I got fatter and method is pinching slightly.

Back to the regularly scheduled thread, thanks for that safety double-check aside

 

[MattMan81]

The knee jerk reaction to say oh someone died rope climbing therefore climbing sticks are safe is a trap that I don’t think we should fall into. ALL climbing methods have risks and they should ALL be discussed and people should be aware of them. Being significantly overweight, having underlying health conditions, or being significantly older are additional risks to ALL of these climbing methods, and is not specific to rope climbing or JRB.

This is true. I don't see sticks as 100% safe. Or pre set stands, or ladder stands. Everything has a risk factor. Driving to and from hunting has a risk. Walking thru the woods with a razor sharp broadhead has a risk.

 

[Crawdaddy4]

The knee jerk reaction to say oh someone died rope climbing therefore climbing sticks are safe is a trap that I don’t think we should fall into. ALL climbing methods have risks and they should ALL be discussed and people should be aware of them. Being significantly overweight, having underlying health conditions, or being significantly older are additional risks to ALL of these climbing methods, and is not specific to rope climbing or JRB.

Did someone say this "someone died rope climbing therefore climbing sticks are safe..." somewhere or are you just preemptively stating we shouldn't fall into this argument? Because I would 100% agree with you. As someone who climbs exclusively with sticks, there is nothing innately safer with them versus other methods. Familiarity and confidence play a big factor in this particular risk assessment. Also, just because a single facet is true concerning one method, does not automatically mean the same facet is not true pertaining to another (e.g., no mutual exclusivity between safety of JRB and climbing sticks).

 

[Plebe]

Did someone say this "someone died rope climbing therefore climbing sticks are safe..." somewhere or are you just preemptively stating we shouldn't fall into this argument? Because I would 100% agree with you. As someone who climbs exclusively with sticks, there is nothing innately safer with them versus other methods. Familiarity and confidence play a big factor in this particular risk assessment. Also, just because a single facet is true concerning one method, does not automatically mean the same facet is not true pertaining to another (e.g., no mutual exclusivity between safety of JRB and climbing sticks).

"I expect a set of climbing sticks would have served him better." was said.