Saddle Hunting: Packing up

[c h r i s]

I tried the foot loops with LW sticks, and while they worked, the helium sticks with two steps is far better IMHO. I customized my helium sticks to where they are 24 inches long and have two sets of 2 steps. add in 20 inch strap and 20 inches between sticks and you get 5 foot a stick. LWs will work but in the dark it was just easier and mroe stable to have my hands and feet on two steps. Plus the two setps I think keeps the loops hanging better

I'm down to a neoprene XL with no leg or shoulder straps, an added waist belt for ascending (XL is too big for my waist) and the original bridge, which I hook up to the orig TS linesman belt via aluminum carabiner.

DaveT, I would love more details on your saddle mods. I can't bring myself to cut the original bridge off (which is now the heaviest part) until I've found a solid alternative bridge connection.

 

[DaveT1963]

Chris PM me and I'll be glad to share what I've learned and an using.

 

[DaveT1963]

first picture is of the original tree strap I was using. I am now using a 15 foot cam buckle strap that I make a big loop out of, then I wrap around the tree and then pull through itself and cinch it against tree (similar to how we handle ropes). I position the cam buckle to be right at tree while standing as this is the closest I will need it to tree and can let out slack to walk the ring or to sit down in saddle. very easy to make one handed length adjustments and it is one piece and very quiet.

Second Picture is of my modified saddle. I use a nylon or polyester 18 inch runner as my bridge. It is rated far above what I would ever need - believe it is rated higher than the rope? I attach the tree strap to in via a locking carbineer. I don't have leg straps or chest straps but these are easily added if desired. I just cinch the belt tight to my waist. If a deer approached you can undo the waist buckle and this opens up a lot of shooting opportunities. My attachment point to tree is right at chest high and i just lengthen the strap as need for comfort. This height and set up has opened up a lot of better shooting angles and makes it so easy to walk around the tree .... it is also easy to micro adjust and find that perfect comfort zone.

 

[DaveT1963]

Forgot to mention - I wear this around my waist as I climb with lineman's belt (LW Strap) and then re-adjust it to be like a swing (I adjust it to wear it goes from just below the small of my back to just under my rear end - you know it when it's in the right spot).

Disclaimer: I DO NOT recommend anyone use a similar setup. I encourage people to only use products as the manufacturer designed then to be worn. Sorry but in today's age this is just necessary.

 

[c h r i s]

Chris PM me and I'll be glad to share what I've learned and an using.

Will do later tonight. Thanks Dave.

 

[John Eberhart]

Dave

I like it. Very simple, light, not cumbersome, adjustable and easy to get in and out of in the dark. This is totally a new design to fit the personal needs we talked about and I commend you (for what that's worth) because you thought every aspect through.

 

[DaveT1963]

Dave

I like it. Very simple, light, not cumbersome, adjustable and easy to get in and out of in the dark. This is totally a new design to fit the personal needs we talked about and I commend you (for what that's worth) because you thought every aspect through.

Thanks John and your comments are always worth it to me. As you well know your help has been instrumental in overcoming a lot of the challenges I have hunting the areas I do..... while they are different then your stomping grounds you started the wheels churning and have me figuring little details that I missed before - I have been able to apply a lot of the things you outlined so well in your three videos. Thanks again for your time and help - I am already prepping new trees/areas for next year

 

[jlh42581]

I posted this in one of the other boards in this forum, I gutless quarter

While im in here in photobucket maybe you guys will like this too... I dont drag. Dragn always made me question where I would go, that was one other thing I changed too. I remember once getting to the truck after about a three hour drag and thinking id never do it again, plus I still had all the cutup work to do on a now cold deer. My new Kuiu icon 1800 was 3 days late arriving, figures... i carried this one out on my scouting pack. I sold my x2 a week earlier to fund the kuiu. You wanna talk about a light pack that kuiu is it... WOW i bet the water I carry weighs more than the frame and pack.

 

[1saddleguy]

Dave

I like it. Very simple, light, not cumbersome, adjustable and easy to get in and out of in the dark. This is totally a new design to fit the personal needs we talked about and I commend you (for what that's worth) because you thought every aspect through.

I have to say this scares me. I can see how this is very simple, light, not cumbersome, adjustable and easy to get into. And I know it would also be easy to fall out of. If it becomes slack at the wrong moment, or if you lose your balance for any reason, this belt will let you down—the hard way. This is not a “totally new” design—it is half of a well thought out, proven safety system. Many aspects are thought through here, but one is noticeably absent: safety.

Only a life safety system with both waist belt and leg loops can protect you from falling to the ground. To trust the safety, the waist belt needs to be made with rated parts. Webbing must be spliced with proven stitch patterns or connected with rated hardware. The leg loops need the same requirements and must be integrated into the waist belt. That is the minimum system that will keep you from falling. The rest of the design is for comfort, balance and performance for what you do at height.

I am one who commends thinking outside the box. I am always thinking about creating new designs or exploring new materials, to make a product better in any way that I can. I start with the life safety requirements and build from there. Any reliable safety system will be made this way. When you choose what to use for tree hunting, know the risks you are taking.

 

[DaveT1963]

Dave

I like it. Very simple, light, not cumbersome, adjustable and easy to get in and out of in the dark. This is totally a new design to fit the personal needs we talked about and I commend you (for what that's worth) because you thought every aspect through.

I have to say this scares me. I can see how this is very simple, light, not cumbersome, adjustable and easy to get into. And I know it would also be easy to fall out of. If it becomes slack at the wrong moment, or if you lose your balance for any reason, this belt will let you down—the hard way. This is not a “totally new” design—it is half of a well thought out, proven safety system. Many aspects are thought through here, but one is noticeably absent: safety.

Only a life safety system with both waist belt and leg loops can protect you from falling to the ground. To trust the safety, the waist belt needs to be made with rated parts. Webbing must be spliced with proven stitch patterns or connected with rated hardware. The leg loops need the same requirements and must be integrated into the waist belt. That is the minimum system that will keep you from falling. The rest of the design is for comfort, balance and performance for what you do at height.

I am one who commends thinking outside the box. I am always thinking about creating new designs or exploring new materials, to make a product better in any way that I can. I start with the life safety requirements and build from there. Any reliable safety system will be made this way. When you choose what to use for tree hunting, know the risks you are taking.

I understand and appreciate your concerns, I really do. Like I stated above I don't recommend anyone use my method.

Each of us has to do our own risk assessment and determine what risk can be mitigated and which ones we are WILLING to assume. Trust me when I say that I took nothing lightly when I came up with my systems and that I tried it many times from ground level and I practice from it a lot. And the bridge/components I used are actually rated for climbing or tree stand use. The bridge is called a climbers sling (made out of dyneema) and it is rated above the rope bridge provided with the saddle and has far superior abrasion resistance. The stitching is also rated for climbing.

If I wanted to reduce all risk I would hunt on the ground or I would stay home and watch hunting shows on TV I sure as heck would not climb up climbing sticks with pointed metal steps in the dark and on icy or rainy days. I would never hang a broad head tipped arrow close by a rope that I was hanging from that could cut my rope or could impel me if I did fall. I would also not hunt during gun season on public land and I would ALWAYS were florescent orange. All of these are risks accepted by hunters every day.

BTW leg straps do not assure anyone that they can't fall as stated above - there is nothing to prevent you from falling from the current design if you became inverted and most humans are top heavy. Heck a lot of the guys using saddles are using PLASTIC steps that they KNOW were recalled, home-made PVC Paws that were never rated for climbing and steel steps that could easily cause significant damage during a fall.......

All are risks that have to be thought out, mitigated and accepted or not.

Truth be known, I would love to find a minimalist saddle that had leg straps (just one strap with rated nylon/stitching) that was light weight ( 3pounds or under) and easily fits in a day pack. A saddle designed for hunting and one that did not have so many bells and whistles to where they now weigh close to what my lone wolf assault tree stand does …..…. Currently no one is manufacturing such a saddle so I have to "improvise".

Unnecessary risk? Perhaps. But then again, I am not sure it is safe and without risk to try to stick big game with an arrow launched form a longbow from 20 yards.......... but I am not ready to give up my longbow or chasing African game or big black bears to be "safe"......... not yet anyways.

 

[LASOutdoorsmen]

For those of you who use the Lone Wolf Assassin platform I highly recommend using the Lone Wolf Wolf Pack. It has more than enough pockets for accessories and the padded back is great for a knee rest.

 

[1saddleguy]

I understand and appreciate your concerns, I really do. Like I stated above I don't recommend anyone use my method.

Each of us has to do our own risk assessment and determine what risk can be mitigated and which ones we are WILLING to assume. Trust me when I say that I took nothing lightly when I came up with my systems and that I tried it many times from ground level and I practice from it a lot. And the bridge/components I used are actually rated for climbing or tree stand use. The bridge is called a climbers sling (made out of dyneema) and it is rated above the rope bridge provided with the saddle and has far superior abrasion resistance. The stitching is also rated for climbing.

If I wanted to reduce all risk I would hunt on the ground or I would stay home and watch hunting shows on TV I sure as heck would not climb up climbing sticks with pointed metal steps in the dark and on icy or rainy days. I would never hang a broad head tipped arrow close by a rope that I was hanging from that could cut my rope or could impel me if I did fall. I would also not hunt during gun season on public land and I would ALWAYS were florescent orange. All of these are risks accepted by hunters every day.

BTW leg straps do not assure anyone that they can't fall as stated above - there is nothing to prevent you from falling from the current design if you became inverted and most humans are top heavy. Heck a lot of the guys using saddles are using PLASTIC steps that they KNOW were recalled, home-made PVC Paws that were never rated for climbing and steel steps that could easily cause significant damage during a fall.......

All are risks that have to be thought out, mitigated and accepted or not.

Truth be known, I would love to find a minimalist saddle that had leg straps (just one strap with rated nylon/stitching) that was light weight ( 3pounds or under) and easily fits in a day pack. A saddle designed for hunting and one that did not have so many bells and whistles to where they now weigh close to what my lone wolf assault tree stand does …..…. Currently no one is manufacturing such a saddle so I have to "improvise".

Unnecessary risk? Perhaps. But then again, I am not sure it is safe and without risk to try to stick big game with an arrow launched form a longbow from 20 yards.......... but I am not ready to give up my longbow or chasing African game or big black bears to be "safe"......... not yet anyways.

DaveT1963

Posts: 48
Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2014 4:26 pm

I am glad that you appreciate my concern and that you do not recommend any one use your method.

My only concern that I have any experience to address is with tree climbing and making saddles for life safety. I don't really have any experience or opinion on other risks that you take while hunting.
You have stated that a lot of guys take risks with plastic or recalled step components. To me that is all the more reason not to take risks with your saddle which will be there for you if one of those fails.

I am always looking at different materials that may make a better product so I too have been exploring nylon/dyneema slings. I have been reading up on its strengths and weaknesses.

Most have a 22kn rating but other factors may lessen that rating:

Tying any kind of knot in a sling will reduce its strength.
Slings are only full strength when attached to other parts of the safety system with carbiners.
If you are using other methods of attaching such as girth hitching or connecting to rope or webbing, they will lose strength.
Lastly, nylon/dyneema slings do not absorb force the way a climbing rope does. Short falls directly on to a sling can generate tremendous loads. The rope we use is rated at 25kn or 5,600 lbs.


Take a look at the video by Boswell showing how hard it would be to fall out of the Aero. As a recreational climber, we often invert ourselves just for fun.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9YGXHRWIHLQ

I am not really afraid of heights. I am afraid of falling from them. Whether I am 30' up or 200' at the top of a redwood, trusting in my equipment is all I have.

Happy Holidays and Happy Hunting!

 

[Stykbow1]

As far as safety is concerned all of us have taken risks and gotten away with it but that doesn't always make it acceptable or smart we were lucky. A good friend of mine almost lost his life a year ago due to a branch breaking as he was getting into his tree stand and he wasn't wearing a safety vest, even if he was he wouldn't have been hooked up yet when it happened, and still would have fallen. After talking with him I realized that it wasn't just the injuries to him that were devasating it was the impact it had on his family and friends as well. When he told me what transpired I realized just how lucky he was and how many people were involved with his rescue. The fire company had to cut trees down to get their vehicles into the spot where he was injured and numerous other life saving operations to get him to medical treatment, which, all could have been prevented had he used a safety vest, linemans belt or life line. If you ask him now he'd tell you that if he could go back and do those things to prevent it he would in a heart beat but he never thought it would happen to him. He still is dealing with medical issues that he may have for the rest of his life and they don't know if he will have complications in the future. I think he would also tell you that you never realize the impact it has on your family and their lives having to go through something like that. When it comes to climbing into trees for recreation or hunting safety should always be first and foremost, I've never heard of someone intentionally falling, but then that is why they are called accidents. All of this takes on way more meaning when you design something that hundreds of people are going to be using on a daily basis and counting on to work properly. No deer or big game animal is worth compromising your safety for and before you think of what you consider acceptable risks for yourself ask what your would be an acceptable risk to the people who care about you and how their lives would be changed if you were hurt, crippled, or killed. Have a safe and Happy New Year!

Roger

 

[jhicks54]

I am always looking at different materials that may make a better product so I too have been exploring nylon/dyneema slings. I have been reading up on its strengths and weaknesses.

Most have a 22kn rating but other factors may lessen that rating:

Tying any kind of knot in a sling will reduce its strength.
Slings are only full strength when attached to other parts of the safety system with carbiners.
If you are using other methods of attaching such as girth hitching or connecting to rope or webbing, they will lose strength.
Lastly, nylon/dyneema slings do not absorb force the way a climbing rope does. Short falls directly on to a sling can generate tremendous loads. The rope we use is rated at 25kn or 5,600 lbs.

Not sure I follow you on the nylon/dyneema sing thing: What would be the risk in using a nylon/dyneema sling for the bridge if you didn't tie any knots in it? (I've used carabiners to attach them to the paws). But that said, tying any kind of knot in a rope also reduces its strength, correct? So, why rope over a sling? Also, in the situations we use saddles, there should never be a "fall" that the bridge has to absorb, right? The bridge is always taut.

I think I'm missing something, so I would love to hear more explanation of your opinion on this.

 

[Stykbow1]

I'm sure that being a small company that New Tribe doesn't have the R&D resources that bigger companies might have and I'm sure that the feedback and suggestions that they receive from this site are invaluable to them but for many reasons that we might not consider they may not use for legal reasons. That does not mean people shouldn't offer their ideas I think that of all the hunting sites I've been to in the last 10 years the guys here are the most inventive and knowledgable. I also enjoy it on this site because people act like adults and discuss things without flaming or acting juvenile. Keep up the great ideas and thanks for sharing I think that even though something might not be implemented today it may end up part of the saddle of tomorrow.

Roger

 

[DaveT1963]

I am always looking at different materials that may make a better product so I too have been exploring nylon/dyneema slings. I have been reading up on its strengths and weaknesses.

Most have a 22kn rating but other factors may lessen that rating:

Tying any kind of knot in a sling will reduce its strength.
Slings are only full strength when attached to other parts of the safety system with carbiners.
If you are using other methods of attaching such as girth hitching or connecting to rope or webbing, they will lose strength.
Lastly, nylon/dyneema slings do not absorb force the way a climbing rope does. Short falls directly on to a sling can generate tremendous loads. The rope we use is rated at 25kn or 5,600 lbs.

Not sure I follow you on the nylon/dyneema sing thing: What would be the risk in using a nylon/dyneema sling for the bridge if you didn't tie any knots in it? (I've used carabiners to attach them to the paws). But that said, tying any kind of knot in a rope also reduces its strength, correct? So, why rope over a sling? Also, in the situations we use saddles, there should never be a "fall" that the bridge has to absorb, right? The bridge is always taut.

I think I'm missing something, so I would love to hear more explanation of your opinion on this.

I don't think you are missing a thing. I don't see how anyone would ever free fall while wearing a saddle and then hit the end of a slack line. The worse thing that would happen is that you would be slammed against the tree if your platform broke or a stick gave out while wearing the lineman's belt. (think of swinging from a vine across the creek - that is the action/force you should experience if you are wearing a saddle properly and something broke underfoot) If you free fall while climbing using the lineman's belt or while hunting being attached to the bridge you ARE USING THEM WRONG. The idea that rope is superior is also not accurate - if that was TRUE your car would be using rope for seat belts and fall restraint devices would be made of rope - THEY ARENT. Webbing is far superior - better rot resistance, moisture resistance, abrasion resistance, lack of stretch and they retain their initial strength for decades - rope should be replaced far more often. And you can get nlyon straps that FAR EXCEED 22k - but why would you need it? When I skydive I use a web harness and straps.... reopes are only used to attach from the webbing to the actual parachute.

Also, the recommended attachment point of reaching up as high as you can is silly. That changes the leverages and places more force in a more vertical manner. People really should start paying attention during physical science in grade school. Since I started using John's advice of eye high attachment I never have a comfort issue. Yes you have to adjust a little from time to time but you do that even sitting on a couch. Try sitting on a couch in the same position for five hours..... And I also have far easier time shooting in many positions with a lower attachment point.

The example above is sad to hear.... but why anyone would be standing on a tree branch is beyond me. The saddle, harness was not at fault - the operator should never trust a tree branch and should ALWAYS have their attachment line taunt.

And yes tying a knot in any material weakens it . How much depends on they trype of knot used. Last time I checked a blackes hitch or prussic knot was used in the 8 mm prussic cord. guess what? That prussic does NOT have the stated breaking strength that the rope had before that knot was tied in it. Most also have a double fisherman's knot which also weakens it. Webbing is also better at being able to tighten to the tree. Anyone that has used rope in place of web strap on sticks knows exactly what I am talking about - rope sticks adjust/settle far further down on the tree. I use rope - but I accept its limitations as I choose it for quietness while still maintianing far then adequate strength. I also use a nlyon strap as an extra step on each stick. More dangerous? NO. I do have to use caution and ensure I place my foot securely in the loop - but hey get careless on a lone wolf step and its just as dangerous if not more so. The strap step (even with waterknot) has far superior breaking strength then the original strap with cam buckle or 11 mm rope that I use.

LAST - Boswell also demonstrated the can't fall while inverted video using the original tree saddle. The truth is that once you get hooked into the tree it would be pretty hard to fall out of most saddles - especially if you have a waist belt and it is kept snug.

 

[jhicks54]

I agree. Just wanted to hear Casey's reasoning in making the claim he did. He feels passionately about using rope, so there must be some reason why. Until I hear a great logical argument against it, I'll continue to use webbing.

(I also went back to hooking up at eye level as John suggests. After switching to the original Aero, I tried the "high as you can reach" method all last season and eventually found that it just doesn't work for me. Shorter bridge and eye level from now on.)

 

[g2outdoors]

I also went back to hooking up at eye level as John suggests. After switching to the original Aero, I tried the "high as you can reach" method all last season and eventually found that it just doesn't work for me. Shorter bridge and eye level from now on.

I also changed over to a shorter hookup after reading John's post. It make's a big difference in comfort!

 

[jhicks54]

The only thing is that you need to be able to lengthen the "lead" to move around the tree. The prussic makes it difficult. You need a strap you can adjust with one hand (bow is in the other hand)

 

[DaveT1963]

I acutally use a t screw on back side to keep strap/rope at right height, I stand up on steps and then just rotate the strap on tree around as I walk the steps. I seldom need to adjust the lead to the bridge anymore. I do take extra time when prepping tree to scrap off all rough bark at the strap height. It also works with rope. Just loop it once around tree. As you stand you should have enough slack to allow tha tree strap to rotate. I still like the adjustability using the lonewolf strap between tree strap and bridge - but I have not had to use it much when walking the tree. I do use it when I adjust as I stand/sit for periosd of time.... but not so much when I walk the tree.