• The SH Membership has gone live. Only SH Members have access to post in the classifieds. All members can view the classifieds. Starting in 2020 only SH Members will be admitted to the annual hunting contest. Current members will need to follow these steps to upgrade: 1. Click on your username 2. Click on Account upgrades 3. Choose SH Member and purchase.
  • We've been working hard the past few weeks to come up with some big changes to our vendor policies to meet the changing needs of our community. Please see the new vendor rules here: Vendor Access Area Rules

Thoughts on My First Year "Trophy Hunting"

kyler1945 said:
Yeh, well, that's just like, your opinion, man.
Click to expand...

Yep, absolutely flawed.

We know he can count any KY data out, they don't report anything under 170". :tearsofjoy:

I jest.

But really, maybe NB should move or pay an outfitter. They've got some brilliant food plots and bucks like cattle.
 
Buck analytics, now we're speaking my language...the language I try to leave at work. Can I interest you in a live buck dashboard and monthly consultative calls/therapy sessions?

Find thick stuff where deer want to be and people have a hard time getting to. Go hunt, you already know how to do it. Just takes a little time to sort through the little ones until you find what you're looking for. And be prepared if you set a higher bar to not meet it, that's the mental hurdle ahead.

And don't underestimate the role luck/juju/karma/higher power(s) factor in. All the spreadsheets and sponsors in the world can't beat a hot hand.
 
Last edited:
kyler1945 said:
View attachment 50377

here’s the topo. Should be helpful. Elevation lines are at 2’ intervals.
Click to expand...
Looks like the same stuff I hunt.
Plebe said:
My thoughts are bucks are most vulnerable during the rut phases, on the whole. Of course there are exceptions, but this is a time when attentions are on more than detection of predators, when hormones cause them to take on risk. For example, bucks will fight each other to the death. When else do they knowingly put themselves in harms way like that, other than crossing a highway.

Does rut madness mean patterning is more difficult? Possibly, but I don't really think so.

Early season can be great, surely. A nice farm surrounded by woods with known bedding, maybe a small swamp. I bet that's a winner.

Yet, I have hunted woods so thick, feed to bed was a matter of feet and yards. The main advantage of early was, low hunting pressure, and the hope to maybe catch a good one out for a stroll.

I won't deny many skilled hunters know how to scout, locate, approach, and kill big bucks early.

But the advantage is weighted, ambushing a buck with full wits about him when he's unsuspecting or one that's half-cocked and galavant.
Click to expand...
I am not disagreeing that the rut is probably the best time to catch a mature buck on his feet. I was speaking more specifically to hunting a specific buck. If you find a target buck by cam or visual, I believe that specific deer will be easier to kill in the periods I mentioned rather than during the rut. When the rut really gets going, a lot of bucks expand or even leave their core areas and food to bed is a crap shoot too because they got a nose full of Suzy and they are going where ever that wind blows. That makes them entirely unpredictable. If you just want to kill any mature deer, then yes the rut is the best time. If I were trying to kill a specific deer, I would choose before and after the rut when that deer is likely to be on a more predictable pattern. Just depends on the goal of the hunter.
 
BTaylor said:
Looks like the same stuff I hunt.

I am not disagreeing that the rut is probably the best time to catch a mature buck on his feet. I was speaking more specifically to hunting a specific buck. If you find a target buck by cam or visual, I believe that specific deer will be easier to kill in the periods I mentioned rather than during the rut. When the rut really gets going, a lot of bucks expand or even leave their core areas and food to bed is a crap shoot too because they got a nose full of Suzy and they are going where ever that wind blows. That makes them entirely unpredictable. If you just want to kill any mature deer, then yes the rut is the best time. If I were trying to kill a specific deer, I would choose before and after the rut when that deer is likely to be on a more predictable pattern. Just depends on the goal of the hunter.
Click to expand...

Not entirely:

"Research from Texas recently showed that mature bucks only used 30 percent of their home range during the rut, had two or more points of activity that they focused on, and they re-visited these locations roughly every 20 to 28 hours. What’s more, these same sites were targeted by numerous other collared bucks, possibly supporting the theory that bucks space their visits to doe groups to continually assess female receptiveness." https://www.deerassociation.com/10-things-know-mature-buck-movements/

But sure, deer travel, and not just during the rut:

"Deer take short vacations. Today’s increasingly accurate GPS collars have taught us that deer (does and bucks) go on excursions, or brief trips outside their established home range. They do it regularly and even on well-managed properties with high-quality habitat. Excursions have been documented across various landscapes, in all age classes, and just about year-round; however, there is certainly a huge spike in this type of movement during the rut. Unfortunately, there is no way to predict when and how far a buck will go."
 
Plebe said:
Not entirely:

But sure, deer travel, and not just during the rut:

"Deer take short vacations. Today’s increasingly accurate GPS collars have taught us that deer (does and bucks) go on excursions, or brief trips outside their established home range. They do it regularly and even on well-managed properties with high-quality habitat. Excursions have been documented across various landscapes, in all age classes, and just about year-round; however, there is certainly a huge spike in this type of movement during the rut. Unfortunately, there is no way to predict when and how far a buck will go."
Click to expand...

Last year I stumbled upon the PGC and Penn State's Deer Forest Study and yes, they show video using GPS Collaring of bucks and it was insane watching this buck almost kind of "B" line to his original birth area location every year and about the same time. So there was his core area and data point after data point within his core area and then all of a sudden, he's going on on a "vacation" for a like a day or so.

On private property I hunt I have relegated my buck inventory strategy to mock scrapes with a 3' vertical grape vine hung by coated wire over primary scrapes I have either found or make. Even if there is an existing "natural" licking branch, I hang up my stick. Can't believe how the deer migrate to that. Every time I see another deer using that branch I know it is becoming a great communication hub. Its like going to the diner or getting your haircut for deer. They smell all the stories going on for the area.
 
Plebe said:
Not entirely:

"Research from Texas recently showed that mature bucks only used 30 percent of their home range during the rut, had two or more points of activity that they focused on, and they re-visited these locations roughly every 20 to 28 hours. What’s more, these same sites were targeted by numerous other collared bucks, possibly supporting the theory that bucks space their visits to doe groups to continually assess female receptiveness." https://www.deerassociation.com/10-things-know-mature-buck-movements/

But sure, deer travel, and not just during the rut:

"Deer take short vacations. Today’s increasingly accurate GPS collars have taught us that deer (does and bucks) go on excursions, or brief trips outside their established home range. They do it regularly and even on well-managed properties with high-quality habitat. Excursions have been documented across various landscapes, in all age classes, and just about year-round; however, there is certainly a huge spike in this type of movement during the rut. Unfortunately, there is no way to predict when and how far a buck will go."
Click to expand...
I think there is certainly value in research articles but I dont veiw them as the be all as it relates to where and how I hunt. As it sort of touches on, pressure is the number factor impacting daylight deer movement and that varies wildly. It also seems to imply that what we as hunters view in the field is not really what is occurring. I would argue that 40 years of hunting season observation in the specific areas I hunt has more relevance to my hunting than a gps collar study from Texas or PA. At what point does accumulated observation become something other than anecdotal or is it simply that hunters dont have "university study" attached to their name? Of the guys I know or know of that consistently kill big mature bucks not a single one of them would prescribe to the notion that moon and/or weather change has no bearing on them being able to kill the bucks they have targeted.

I think there is a tremendous amount of useful knowledge that comes from these studies but I also think there is not a significant amount of correlation to field application for hunters depending on where they are hunting. Some of that I think is probably impacted by the natural differences between northern, midwestern and southern deer herds, a lot is impacted by pressure, public vs. private ground, etc. Ultimately though, if I want to get better at killing big mature whitetails, personally, I will lend more credence to the guys that kill them year after year not some study that says deer move the same on a low pressure warm front as they do on a high pressure cold front.
 
BTaylor said:
I think there is certainly value in research articles but I dont veiw them as the be all as it relates to where and how I hunt. As it sort of touches on, pressure is the number factor impacting daylight deer movement and that varies wildly. It also seems to imply that what we as hunters view in the field is not really what is occurring. I would argue that 40 years of hunting season observation in the specific areas I hunt has more relevance to my hunting than a gps collar study from Texas or PA. At what point does accumulated observation become something other than anecdotal or is it simply that hunters dont have "university study" attached to their name? Of the guys I know or know of that consistently kill big mature bucks not a single one of them would prescribe to the notion that moon and/or weather change has no bearing on them being able to kill the bucks they have targeted.

I think there is a tremendous amount of useful knowledge that comes from these studies but I also think there is not a significant amount of correlation to field application for hunters depending on where they are hunting. Some of that I think is probably impacted by the natural differences between northern, midwestern and southern deer herds, a lot is impacted by pressure, public vs. private ground, etc. Ultimately though, if I want to get better at killing big mature whitetails, personally, I will lend more credence to the guys that kill them year after year not some study that says deer move the same on a low pressure warm front as they do on a high pressure cold front.
Click to expand...
The thing is you're biased. I'm biased. Every hunter who has invested years of his life into trying to know is biased. We all think we know things and the stakes are high if we're wrong. I'm as guilty of this as anybody. The thing about a good, deliberate, scientific research project is it at least should be conducted by people who went to school to learn how not to let the "I think" monkey cloud the data. And the fact that they're not hunters and don't have preconceptions based on the writings of people like Infalt and Eberhart and THP and all the other gurus who arrived at their conclusions without much structured thought is what makes the studies interesting and valuable. They don't necessarily have the preconception that "of course" big bucks are different than other deer.

Don't just read one study. Read as many as you can. See where they agree and where they argue with each other. They're not perfect, but if I could snap my fingers and forget every word ever written or spoken by a hunter and download all the studies into my brain, I would. Organized, collaborative, methodical, scientific method-based thinking gets us polio vaccines. One person saying "I've X'ed for 40 years and I think I know Y" gets us facebook moms treating the flu with lemon oil.
 
BTaylor said:
I think there is certainly value in research articles but I dont veiw them as the be all as it relates to where and how I hunt. As it sort of touches on, pressure is the number factor impacting daylight deer movement and that varies wildly. It also seems to imply that what we as hunters view in the field is not really what is occurring. I would argue that 40 years of hunting season observation in the specific areas I hunt has more relevance to my hunting than a gps collar study from Texas or PA. At what point does accumulated observation become something other than anecdotal or is it simply that hunters dont have "university study" attached to their name? Of the guys I know or know of that consistently kill big mature bucks not a single one of them would prescribe to the notion that moon and/or weather change has no bearing on them being able to kill the bucks they have targeted.

I think there is a tremendous amount of useful knowledge that comes from these studies but I also think there is not a significant amount of correlation to field application for hunters depending on where they are hunting. Some of that I think is probably impacted by the natural differences between northern, midwestern and southern deer herds, a lot is impacted by pressure, public vs. private ground, etc. Ultimately though, if I want to get better at killing big mature whitetails, personally, I will lend more credence to the guys that kill them year after year not some study that says deer move the same on a low pressure warm front as they do on a high pressure cold front.
Click to expand...

Right, so you're saying big buck hunting is deer specific and location specific.

So how can any advice to Nutterbuster be of value?

Whom are these guys who kill them year after year that we shall give credence to, and what to do when there is a contradiction? Is it Terry and Mark Drury...."November the 4th...November the 6th...November the 12th...." Or is it Lanny Benoit...whenever there's a track. Or is it Dan Infalt, or Eberhart, Chuck Adams, THP? Or just guys in your area?
 
BTaylor said:
I think there is certainly value in research articles but I dont veiw them as the be all as it relates to where and how I hunt. As it sort of touches on, pressure is the number factor impacting daylight deer movement and that varies wildly. It also seems to imply that what we as hunters view in the field is not really what is occurring. I would argue that 40 years of hunting season observation in the specific areas I hunt has more relevance to my hunting than a gps collar study from Texas or PA. At what point does accumulated observation become something other than anecdotal or is it simply that hunters dont have "university study" attached to their name? Of the guys I know or know of that consistently kill big mature bucks not a single one of them would prescribe to the notion that moon and/or weather change has no bearing on them being able to kill the bucks they have targeted.

I think there is a tremendous amount of useful knowledge that comes from these studies but I also think there is not a significant amount of correlation to field application for hunters depending on where they are hunting. Some of that I think is probably impacted by the natural differences between northern, midwestern and southern deer herds, a lot is impacted by pressure, public vs. private ground, etc. Ultimately though, if I want to get better at killing big mature whitetails, personally, I will lend more credence to the guys that kill them year after year not some study that says deer move the same on a low pressure warm front as they do on a high pressure cold front.
Click to expand...


What you see is all there is.

Bias.

Noise.

40 years of observation feels like a lot. Seems like a lot. HAS to be a lot. But the power in those observations is so small in comparison to what you can draw from these large sample size studies that are designed properly.

This doesn't mean that personal experience is useless, or even less useful than certain studies. But really, all you're doing with personal experience is building a model of your hunting world. Then you operate according to that model. No different than using the studies to gain insight, and build a model.

One key difference is that the data doesn't have a bad day, diarrhea, a work emergency, nor does it attach emotional or mental significance to certain events that don't merit them.

You can say all you want that your big buck killers kill more deer than people running studies. True. But I'd argue that over the last decade, and projecting over the next decade, you can get nerdy kids on the spectrum who somehow take an interest in hunting, that will run circles around any moon watching, pressure reading salty old timer. It's already happening.
 
Plebe said:
Right, so you're saying big buck hunting is deer specific and location specific.

So how can any advice to Nutterbuster be of value?

Whom are these guys who kill them year after year that we shall give credence to, and what to do when there is a contradiction? Is it Terry and Mark Drury...."November the 4th...November the 6th...November the 12th...." Or is it Lanny Benoit...whenever there's a track. Or is it Dan Infalt, or Eberhart, Chuck Adams, THP? Or just guys in your area?
Click to expand...
No I am saying there is a difference in just trying to kill any mature deer and trying to kill a specific deer. Let's put this another way, if your hot water tank bust and is leaking in your house, are you going to call your doctor that has 27 years of education or are you going to call the damn plumber that knows how to fix it?
 
kyler1945 said:
What you see is all there is.

You can say all you want that your big buck killers kill more deer than people running studies. True. But I'd argue that over the last decade, and projecting over the next decade, you can get nerdy kids on the spectrum who somehow take an interest in hunting, that will run circles around any moon watching, pressure reading salty old timer. It's already happening.
Click to expand...

Absolutely! I find myself watching way more younger dudes do this stuff on my YouTube Channel hitlists than I am the older dudes. However, Hal Blood still kicks A$$ as does the Beast. Jeff Sturgis has some good info. too but his whole premise is managed property and managed deer. Just too clinical for me. I love the randomness. Southern Groundhunter is great stuff too. Young dudes getting it done.
 
BTaylor said:
No I am saying there is a difference in just trying to kill any mature deer and trying to kill a specific deer. Let's put this another way, if your hot water tank bust and is leaking in your house, are you going to call your doctor that has 27 years of education or are you going to call the damn plumber that knows how to fix it?
Click to expand...

Assuming you subscribe to the theory that mature bucks are alien species...

I think the better analogy is your brand new high rise with brand new model water heaters with some new technology break. Do you call a plumbing company who has years of experience in their technicians, but has never seen this particular type of water heater. Or do you call in the engineer who designs water heaters for a living, and understands water heater design concepts?
 
BTaylor said:
No I am saying there is a difference in just trying to kill any mature deer and trying to kill a specific deer. Let's put this another way, if your hot water tank bust and is leaking in your house, are you going to call your doctor that has 27 years of education or are you going to call the damn plumber that knows how to fix it?
Click to expand...
Sheeeeet. I don't need no plumber who went to trade school and apprenticed. I've lived in a house with a hot water tank for 28 years.
 
kyler1945 said:
What you see is all there is.

Bias.

Noise.

40 years of observation feels like a lot. Seems like a lot. HAS to be a lot. But the power in those observations is so small in comparison to what you can draw from these large sample size studies that are designed properly.

This doesn't mean that personal experience is useless, or even less useful than certain studies. But really, all you're doing with personal experience is building a model of your hunting world. Then you operate according to that model. No different than using the studies to gain insight, and build a model.

One key difference is that the data doesn't have a bad day, diarrhea, a work emergency, nor does it attach emotional or mental significance to certain events that don't merit them.

You can say all you want that your big buck killers kill more deer than people running studies. True. But I'd argue that over the last decade, and projecting over the next decade, you can get nerdy kids on the spectrum who somehow take an interest in hunting, that will run circles around any moon watching, pressure reading salty old timer. It's already happening.
Click to expand...
Geez louise, all I have been saying and continue to say is the non-celebrity guys I know that consistently kill target deer not just a random mature deer, as well as the celeb hunters like Mark Drury, Bill Winke, Eberhart, etc., absorb all of the knowledge available about deer they can and then apply it to their hunting areas combined with observational data. Knowledge of deer, deer habitat, general deer movement gets you in the game. Applying observational data (field and cam) to that kills deer.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top