Thoughts on My First Year "Trophy Hunting"

[LoadedLimbs]

@Nutterbuster ... you and the boys 'been busy on the keyboard this week ... I can tell it's mid-summer and the natives are getting restless for the season opener! I have some thoughts on this discussion that I want to add ... especially in light of the quoted comments below.

So I'll restate my hypothesis:

Big bucks are not smarter than other deer, and do not require fundamentally different strategies to kill.
I will say I see a middle ground I'm willing to cede. Bucks can behave somewhat differently.

This is pretty basic stuff but it kind of opened my mind that these animals are pretty cunning after spending 24/7 in the woods avoiding predators. Think of a 5.5 yr old deer spending 24/7 in the woods. That's 48,180 hours of evading predators and staying alive. When you think of the hours we spend in the woods hunting say 6 hours daily for 6 months out of the year (which probably isn't realistic for most) you're looking at 44 years for us to catch up to the amount of time he already has in the woods.

@Jtaylor - I'd like to build on your excellent points above:
1. In an environment of high predatory pressure, the process of natural selection guarantees that bucks with better situational awareness, and more cautious reactions to sensory inputs, live longer and get bigger. (Bucks with lower situational awareness, and that exhibit less cautious reactions get killed.) And yes, "dumb", "inexperienced", and "indecisive" bucks in the herd get killed off, so it's reasonable to conclude that mature bucks are smarter or warier than those that don't live to maturity. So there isn't really anything magical or mystical about them, but they ARE the cream of the crop for a reason, and they are seasoned survivors.
2. Predatory pressure is a key factor ... in the absence of predatory pressure, the process of natural selection isn't functioning ... it's not culling out the dumb, less aware, less decisive, and less cagey animals.

Here's MY anecdote:
I have hunted whitetail deer on Anticosti Island. It is almost unpopulated by humans, (<100 residents) and 99% of the island is undeveloped ... the woods there are flush with whitetails. The only predators on the island that are a threat to deer are humans, and the hunting pressure is very light there because of regulations that limit access and hunting pressure. One of the consequences is that most of the whitetails on the island don't have fear of humans. There were many times still-hunting through the woods when I would sneak up on deer and be able to get within 10-20 yards of them. (I have NEVER been able to sneak up that close to deer on public hunting lands in the U.S.!)

On Anticosti, I had one buck walk down a trail to me, not on alert, his head down, and browsing as he came. I had just come down that same trail 10 minutes prior so my scent was all over the trail, and fresh! That buck walked right to me and at about 3 yards he had one of those "Oh Dear!" reactions when he looked up and saw me standing right in front of him. I stood still as a statue. He studied me for what seemed like a long time, but it was probably only about a minute. Eventually, he tensed up his posture and stomped & snorted. When I didn't react he stomped again. I just kept doing my best impression of a statue, and he slowly turned and walked away ... he never even raised his tail.

I share all of this only to reinforce the point that predatory pressure is a key factor, and when that pressure is low it's an entirely different game.

For whitetails in low pressure environments, I agree with you that trophy bucks won't behave much different than younger ones, or require "fundamentally different strategies" to harvest. In places of high pressure, mature bucks are smarter, more decisive, more cagey, and more likely fully nocturnal. You aren't going to be successful if you make any mistakes. A mature buck in a high pressure environment isn't going to tolerate sights, sounds, or scents that it associates with danger - and will decisively beat feet outta there to one of his known safety zones.

I'm convinced that the reason more trophy animals are taken during the rut is that they violate their all-nocturnal behavior and are preoccupied with procreation even more than survival.

 

[kbetts]

....I'm not reading all that....lol.

I wish Nutter the best of luck. I'm doing a bit of a personal challenge this year myself.


What gets it done....being aggressive. As whitetail hunters we think its about "waiting".......I'm less convinced. Only "wait" on the hottest of spots.

 

[Jim DeSantis]

Nutter, listen to the last few weeks of the Southern Outdoors podcast about radio collared bucks. I've killed 120-150" deer in GA and AL but on private land. Not super land, lease land but not public. I'm back up North now and in the big mountains so I'm relearning hunting in PA. I can promise you 3.5, and especially 4.5 + deer are a totally different species of deer, especially on public, hard hunted land.

 

[Deerkins]

Mature bucks are a different animal compared to immature, but the major limiting factor on most hunters success, is that they simply don’t exist where they’re hunting.

Hunters that live in poor trophy areas have essentially two choices. Travel long distances to where mature bucks live in such numbers, that it can be safely assumed that each block of woods holds the animals that they are willing to target. From there, they can hunt, using somewhat basic tactics with a reasonable chance of success.

their second option, is to spend a lot of time and energy Locating the few mature bucks that live in their home area. After eventually locating one, hunt that animal specifically, because he is likely the only one in that area and knowing his tendencies, or one tendency, will be needed to counter the vast amount of land that is not utilized by a comparative sized beast.

odds of success after locating a particular animal will then hinge more greatly on hunting skill/tactics, knowledge of mature buck behavior..

In a nutshell, Hunters in crap areas need to pour their effort into locating. Hunters in great areas need to pour their efforts into seat time.

 

[Nutterbuster]

Time to stir the pot some more.

Spent 3 days driving over 1k miles throughout the state. Visited several properties in several different counties. Didn't really do any boots-on-the-ground scouting since it's hot and the wife and puppy were tagging along.

Below is a spreadsheet with some information I pulled on each county. Baldwin County is the actual name of the county I reside in and have historically focused most of my efforts hunting. The other 3 counties names have been changed cuz nunyabiznez.

Population - Human Population
Bucks Public 2021 - Number of bucks reported as killed in that county on public property during the 2020-2021 season
Bucks Private 2021 - Number of bucks reported as killed in that county on privately-owned property during the 2020-2021 season
Bucks Total - All total bucks reported as killled during that county during the 2020-2021 season
Total/Population - represents 1 Buck killed per X number of people residing in the county
Public/population - represents 1 buck killed on public property per X number of people residing in the county
P&Y - Number of P&Y typical bucks recorded in the county since 1908. (P&Y has a minimum of 125" to score)
AWR - Number of Alabama Whitetail Record typical bucks recorded in the county. (Has a minimum of 100" to score)
P&Y/AWR - The sum of P&Y and AWR bucks recorded.
PY&AWR/Pop - Represents one "trophy" buck reported per X number of people residing in the county

	Population	Bucks Public 2021	Bucks Private 2021	Bucks Total	Total/Population	Public/Population	Public/Private Bucks	P&Y	AWR	PY&AWR	PY&AWR/Pop
Baldwin	218,022​	79​	2457	2536	85.9708​	2759.7722​		0​	4​	4​	54506​
Hell's Canyon	51,852​	297​	2673	2970	17.4586​	174.5859​	0.1111​	8​	98​	106​	489​
Green Water	23,784​	244​	1194	1438	16.5396​	97.4754​	0.2044​	2​	61​	63​	378​
Barge	20,243​	52​	2098	2150	9.4153​	389.2885​	0.0248​	4​	73​	77​	263​

In Baldwin County, where I live full time in a rural area (my property borders 90k acres of WMA and there is another maybe 3k 15 minutes away) and drive several times a week in the twilight or nighttime hours, I have seen only a handful of does this summer. I have seen maybe 4-5 bucks on the side of the highway in my entire life here. I am able to pull bucks off of public land here, but usually I get one, maybe two chances per season. You'll notice that the trophy numbers are dismal, and the number of bucks killed is not very good relative to the population size.

You'll notice that in Hell's Canyon, there have been something like 25 times as many bucks entered into the P&Y and AWR, and you're apparently more than 10 times as likely to kill a buck on public land (1 buck killed last year per 175 people in Hell's Canyon vs 1 buck killed per 2,759 people in Baldwin County. Interestingly enough, my wife and I had the pleasure of encountering a very tall velvet 8 point with only about 30 minutes of driving down a paved road that ran through that WMA. During broad daylight...in the middle of a hot summer...

In Green Water County, we almost hit a nice little 6 point running across the road at a campground in the middle of several thousand acres of public hunting land. Saw several does. All in broad daylight. Maybe an hour of riding that property.

Barge County; my wife and I visited 3 properties in this county. Maybe an hour to an hour and a half driving paved roads. Each property we visited had does standing around in the open woods or on utility easements.

Again, my home county has deer. People hunt it successfully. I hunt it successfully. But who here if given a choice would kill a 3 day weekend in Baldwin County?

Are the bucks in Baldwin County way smarter than the ones in Hell's Canyon? Or is it just that they're an exponentially greater amount of them up there so it's more likely to cross paths with one? If big bucks are smarter than the general population...are they 10-25 times smarter? Is is better to be an average hunter in a great spot, or a great hunter in an average spot? Where should you focus your limited resources for the greates ROI?

 

[kyler1945]

Are the bucks in Baldwin County way smarter than the ones in Hell's Canyon? Or is it just that they're an exponentially greater amount of them up there so it's more likely to cross paths with one? If big bucks are smarter than the general population...are they 10-25 times smarter? Is is better to be an average hunter in a great spot, or a great hunter in an average spot? Where should you focus your limited resources for the greates ROI?

Get out of here with your quantitative data and pattern recognition!


Brought to you by Carl's Jr. Brought to you by Carl's Jr. Brought to you by Carl's Jr...

 

[boyne bowhunter]

Can't speak to the acerage involved for each cited population but is it possible increased human presence/pressure pushes the bucks to a more nocturnal existence in the higher population area? That would affect deer kill numbers.

 

[kyler1945]

Can't speak to the acerage involved for each cited population but is it possible increased human presence/pressure pushes the bucks to a more nocturnal existence in the higher population area? That would affect deer kill numbers.

One thing that isn't captured specifically in the data, but is known by the ole NB, is that there's just not many deer there, and there aren't many big ones amongst the sparse population.

@Nutterbuster do you have the deer per square mile in the "alive" option somehow? Measuring herd size/density might be useful to overlay in this data. More deer does not equal bigger deer, per se. But It does add some color. It could lessen the distraction of human stimulus changing the deer behavior as an indicator of deer toughness to kill.

 

[mattsteg]

"I'm going to kill the first thing that walks out" would either not change or positively impact their potential to shoot bucks. You can definitely end up with some nice deer throughout the years that way, and as a bonus you get a lot of venison!

I'm gonna give that one a hard no*, just based on bag restrictions (whether based on state statutes or freezer space)

 

[neonomad]

I admit I only covered about 40% of this thread before responding. Put me loosely into the mature bucks are smarter camp.

Won’t reiterate the many points others have already made to this end, but last year I entered about 600 Cuddelink encounters from 5 cameras on 100 private acres into Excel, and studying and plotting this data over the winter, it became apparent to me the difficulty of taking a mature buck off this property. Biggest issue is nocturnal movement, complimented by daylight movement occurring most frequently in areas where the big bucks have strategic advantages. I had two solid patterns on two good bucks on a small piece of property and laying in bed night after night I could not put together many plans that I had confidence in because of the terrain they were using heading to bed in the morning, and the terrain they were using to exit in the evening. Then once rut hits admittedly it turns into - possibly more favorable to the hunter who has the time to iron ass it in the stand - chaos. Then late season back to fairly repeatable patterns in their favor. Every property is different of course. Does my data hint that every other deer on this property is much more killable, even the old does? Yes.

 

[Nutterbuster]

One thing that isn't captured specifically in the data, but is known by the ole NB, is that there's just not many deer there, and there aren't many big ones amongst the sparse population.

@Nutterbuster do you have the deer per square mile in the "alive" option somehow? Measuring herd size/density might be useful to overlay in this data. More deer does not equal bigger deer, per se. But It does add some color. It could lessen the distraction of human stimulus changing the deer behavior as an indicator of deer toughness to kill.

To the best of my knowledge, there isn't any good information on live der density. Any reports I've found on that are guesstimating that figure based on harvest reports. DCNR may not have anything since game check is apparently their current best effort for reporting and it's not great. Insurance companies I'd assume must have something somewhere but all I've really found is statewide info (https://newsroom.statefarm.com/animal-collision/) and there are lots of variables that impact that number that don't necessarily imply better/worse hunting.

@boyne bowhunter, you could be right. Our counties are relatively similar in size, but the amount of public acreage does vary. Baldwin County actually has (if memory serves) the most acreage. Barge has very, very little. I've got that info squirreled away somewhere for a few counties that I was very interested in but cant find where I hid it in the "deer" folder.

Maybe the pressure makes them nocturnal. Maybe the pressure makes them dead. But right now they shouldn't be getting any pressure really. I do know for sure that fewer people and more food makes for more deer. Hell's Canyon county is a mix of hardwood timber with STEEP and rocky terrain and more cornfield than I've seen pretty much anywhere in the state. It's also comfortably far away from major population centers with lots of "diversion" properties between it and the big cities to take the brunt of pressure. Vs Baldwin county with sandy soil, pine plantations, a good road system, and oodles of folks.

I am increasingly convinced that a lot of people (not you, just folks in general as I've talked about this subject) just have too much "sunk cost" in the idea of big bucks being smart vs big bucks being scarce. I have seen more velvet bucks in the past month than my entire life put together just because I burned some gasoline. I didn't get smarter or better as a hunter (or rubbernecker). There's a reason hunter-gatherers are nomadic. Happier hunting grounds are the easiest way to have better hunting.

I think that for most people, consuming content and ruminating on how to try and pull the rabbit out of the hat on "their" property is less stressful than the thought of abandoning work and family and coughing up money for an out-of-state tag. Folks "know" in some part of their heads that that's how to be successful because they'll "accuse" others of doing that thing. Example:

"Oh, he went and hunted high fence."

"Oh, THP is probably getting access to "special" properties the state won't let us locals hunt."

"Oh, Infalt lives in Wisconsin."

"Oh, D'Acquisto spends big money on his properties."

"Yeah, well, that's Iowa for ya."

But when THEY hunt, they forfeit that advantage in their heads and assume they can get similar results to the guys who travel without having to follow the recipe. It doesn't help that the gurus sell the "tactics" and not the simple truth that since their livelihood depends on killing big deer, they'll do whatever they have to do to be around big deer. Not very romantic and inspiring, but the simple truth is that it's all well and good for little Billy to say in show-n-tell that he wants to be president, but unless he won a major war or him and his family went to the right school and know the right people...his odds are 0. Doesn't matter how smart, good-hearted, brave, ambitious, and hard-working he is.

Out-thinking a goat is not as worthwhile an endeavor as hunting where more goats live if you just want to kill goats. I don't think this is really new info. Plenty of people have been hunting out-of-state or griping about out-of-state hunters for decades. As I pay more attention, I realize most good hunters are putting the importance of WHERE to hunt ahead of HOW to hunt assuming a few core skills are met. But that gets omitted in the interviews and books. Maybe they're holding out on people. Maybe they assume it's obvious. Maybe whoever is in charge of distributing the content knows that's not "sexy" info. I dunno.

I'm just very much looking forward to proving my theory by having the best season of my life, on the best properties I've ever hunted

 

[neonomad]

Here’s a few tables off this 100 acres, long story short if the camera encounter is within the yellow shaded cells it’s shooting light, the two best bucks made very few mistakes. Sorry for the names, kids named em.

 

[neonomad]

To the best of my knowledge, there isn't any good information on live der density. Any reports I've found on that are guesstimating that figure based on harvest reports. DCNR may not have anything since game check is apparently their current best effort for reporting and it's not great. Insurance companies I'd assume must have something somewhere but all I've really found is statewide info (https://newsroom.statefarm.com/animal-collision/) and there are lots of variables that impact that number that don't necessarily imply better/worse hunting.

@boyne bowhunter, you could be right. Our counties are relatively similar in size, but the amount of public acreage does vary. Baldwin County actually has (if memory serves) the most acreage. Barge has very, very little. I've got that info squirreled away somewhere for a few counties that I was very interested in but cant find where I hid it in the "deer" folder.

Maybe the pressure makes them nocturnal. Maybe the pressure makes them dead. But right now they shouldn't be getting any pressure really. I do know for sure that fewer people and more food makes for more deer. Hell's Canyon county is a mix of hardwood timber with STEEP and rocky terrain and more cornfield than I've seen pretty much anywhere in the state. It's also comfortably far away from major population centers with lots of "diversion" properties between it and the big cities to take the brunt of pressure. Vs Baldwin county with sandy soil, pine plantations, a good road system, and oodles of folks.

I am increasingly convinced that a lot of people (not you, just folks in general as I've talked about this subject) just have too much "sunk cost" in the idea of big bucks being smart vs big bucks being scarce. I have seen more velvet bucks in the past month than my entire life put together just because I burned some gasoline. I didn't get smarter or better as a hunter (or rubbernecker). There's a reason hunter-gatherers are nomadic. Happier hunting grounds are the easiest way to have better hunting.

I think that for most people, consuming content and ruminating on how to try and pull the rabbit out of the hat on "their" property is less stressful than the thought of abandoning work and family and coughing up money for an out-of-state tag. Folks "know" in some part of their heads that that's how to be successful because they'll "accuse" others of doing that thing. Example:

"Oh, he went and hunted high fence."

"Oh, THP is probably getting access to "special" properties the state won't let us locals hunt."

"Oh, Infalt lives in Wisconsin."

"Oh, D'Acquisto spends big money on his properties."

"Yeah, well, that's Iowa for ya."

But when THEY hunt, they forfeit that advantage in their heads and assume they can get similar results to the guys who travel without having to follow the recipe. It doesn't help that the gurus sell the "tactics" and not the simple truth that since their livelihood depends on killing big deer, they'll do whatever they have to do to be around big deer. Not very romantic and inspiring, but the simple truth is that it's all well and good for little Billy to say in show-n-tell that he wants to be president, but unless he won a major war or him and his family went to the right school and know the right people...his odds are 0. Doesn't matter how smart, good-hearted, brave, ambitious, and hard-working he is.

Out-thinking a goat is not as worthwhile an endeavor as hunting where more goats live if you just want to kill goats. I don't think this is really new info. Plenty of people have been hunting out-of-state or griping about out-of-state hunters for decades. As I pay more attention, I realize most good hunters are putting the importance of WHERE to hunt ahead of HOW to hunt assuming a few core skills are met. But that gets omitted in the interviews and books. Maybe they're holding out on people. Maybe they assume it's obvious. Maybe whoever is in charge of distributing the content knows that's not "sexy" info. I dunno.

I'm just very much looking forward to proving my theory by having the best season of my life, on the best properties I've ever hunted

Do agree.

 

[kyler1945]

I find it interesting when folks get annoyed with me for trying to think and speak clearly, and hammering on a point or conversation to get things seen the same on both sides. This thread is one of the reasons I try to inject good faith into the conversation.

Saying "both sides of this argument are valid" is stupid. And wrong. We are taking black and white positions on stuff that needs nuance.

I think some of what fawnfritters is trying to say is that whether old bucks are smarter than other deer, isn't important enough to worry about, given all the other dials and levers you can manipulate to increase success, that you aren't.

Then I see the trail camera data above, and think "yeh, old deer know moving in daylight gets them killed. Just like young deer. They just care more." Like any other animal, young ones appear to engage in riskier behavior because they have not seen the consequences of risky behavior borne out in their own life, or are already born caring more than those that die around them. But I am still willing to concede that deer that make it to old age may be more intelligent than those that get killed off sooner. But does that difference matter? The answer is yes, it matters. Whatever "matters" means.

Maybe what we're looking for here is "If you have maximized every advantage you have in your hunting repertoire (high deer density, good food and cover, known big antler potential from past kills, low hunter pressure, good hunting gear, time to spend in woods, you're a good shot and execute under pressure, blah blah blah), and you STILL have time and focus to devote to upping your odds on big bucks, maybe then you should concern yourself with just how smart they are, and just how different their behavior is because of it.

Some huge majority of hunters have not done what it takes, and are not in the optimal position to leverage thinking big deer are smarter. And yet biguns are still being killed. And while some small amount of the absolute bonafide killers are taking the most biggest bucks, there's still plenty of guys you'd say the following things about, or stories you hear:

"he ain't that smart, but he sure spends a lot of time in the woods and always seems to kill a nice one"

"Sure, if you'd like to hunt that back pasture, I've got a few bales of hay I need moved to the barn. I've been seeing a huge buck every afternoon in the back corner of that pasture. No one's hunted that patch of timber in years."

"I guess I was just in the right place at the right time. I've never seen this buck out here before." (not during rut, of course!)

"How has Bob's wife not left him yet? He's hunting every evening after work and every weekend."

The list could go on. I'm just wondering if we're all talking past each other. No clear definition of "smart", no clear measurement of "degrees", and about a dozen other breakdowns.

I'm willing to bet on two things though:

@Nutterbuster will end up having a fantastic season, far outperforming his average sister-kissin' brethren. It will be in no small part because of the data driven groundwork outlined here.

Lots of folks who exclusively hunt/kill large deer, and make it a point to talk about just how much "smarter" they are, can not, and will not head down to Alabammer and outdo him. The "can nots" will be in large part due to their alleged big buck killing skills are largely wiped out by being utterly unequipped to operate in the new, desolate environment. The "will nots" will be proving the point that hunting where big deer spend their days is the best medicine.

 

[mattsteg]

I am increasingly convinced that a lot of people (not you, just folks in general as I've talked about this subject) just have too much "sunk cost" in the idea of big bucks being smart vs big bucks being scarce.

I don't know that I'd call them smarter. They haven't metamorphisized into something completely different like some sort of caterpillar. They're scarcer because more of their peers have died, and they're alive through some combination of luck, behavior, and maybe some physiological/genetic advantages. Whether that behavior constitutes "smarter", "different" or whatever I won't pretend to know. Some could be "personality" - e.g the deer most likely to grow old may be the ones who just randomly prefer to do safer things. Some could be down to experience - maybe a deer encounters a creepy-looking dude in a tree and develops the habit of checking for that. Maybe they were born with an extra-awesome nose, and the poor fawn you shot had crippling hayfever or something. Maybe they're less horny as youths? Or maybe they're just more disciplined in a successful pattern like I think @kyler1945 suggested, or have just lived long enough to find a a good pattern and a few backups?

To the best of my knowledge, there isn't any good information on live der density. Any reports I've found on that are guesstimating that figure based on harvest reports.

Here in MN we'd run through some iterative multiyear modeling I haven't see any results newer than 2017 so not sure if they're still doing it. https://files.dnr.state.mn.us/wildlife/deer/reports/popmodel/popmodel_2017.pdf

As I pay more attention, I realize most good hunters are putting the importance of WHERE to hunt ahead of HOW to hunt assuming a few core skills are met. But that gets omitted in the interviews and books. Maybe they're holding out on people. Maybe they assume it's obvious.

I think a lot of people are wedded to hunting particular areas to a greater or lesser extent...and for that reason there's a greater appetite for material addressing the HOW. That's stuff anyone can pretend to apply wherever they are already hunting. And there's another cadre of hunters who are willing and able to move around, but fixate on renouned big-buck destinations at too-much of a 30k ft sort of perspective or are only willing/able to make that one big trip.

Folks want to believe that they can get much different results with small changes in behavior. So they load up on scentlock, or shave 3 oz off of their packs, or get a new bow, or whatever.

 

[LAKY]

All it takes for a hunter to realize he isn't living or hunting in quality deer habitat that is also conducive to killing them is to drive to better deer habitat. For a person in the coastal south, that means driving north in most cases. You can literally see the difference from the interstate and highways. You can see deer from your vehicle. That is something people in other areas take for granted.

 

[boyne bowhunter]

I will say honestly that taking true "trophies" has never meant all much to me. If it did I would be making trips to Iowa, Kansas, Ohio, etc. every year. I am fully aware that the "trophy potential" of the woods I hunt in are limited to the 120-130 inch bucks. That said, those are the animals I'm targeting now-a-days. When my family was younger and I didn't have as much vacation available I hunted hard locally with only occasional trips out of county. That is all that the requirements of my life at the time allowed me to do. As I've implied . . . I eventually got bored shooting the 1.5 year old bucks. It really did become all too easy. I wanted more challenge so I now target the upper age class animals in my area. Whether they're a greater challenge because of their experience or scarcity is impossible for me to determine. I'm not in their head and I don't fully know their numbers . . .I can only postulate a theory based on experience. I do know they are a harder ticket to punch for whatever the reason.

Now that my wife and I are empty nesters and my accrued vacation schedule allows me more time to be away I have moved to hunting mostly remote in a couple of counties that I hunted as youngster. That does a few things for me. First, these counties have had APRs in place a bit longer so the age class is a bit better . . . not a lot but a bit. Second, I know these woods like the back of my hand. Over four decades of hunting there allow me to know where to expect bedding, travel corridors and food sources. Third, I sill have some lifelong hunting buddies (and now their kids) in the area and while we don't necessarily hunt together, we still enjoy each others company and discussing the days hunt over a cold beverage or a cup of coffee.

Edit: I'm aware the above paragraph equates to my "comfort zone". The fact of the matter is I hunt for personal enjoyment. It is my past time and hobby. I don't need to push the boundaries of my comfort zone to thoroughly enjoy my time in the woods. Nor do I need to even kill a deer to have a successful season.

Trophy hunter . . nah. I'm just a guy looking to spend as much time in the woods pursuing the most elusive of the whitetails I can find. I spend the summer and early season trying to locate these "elite" animals in my hunting area and then work to try to put them on the ground. The challenge becomes one of targeting a few specific animals and trying to strategize the best means to put them down. The thrill come when, as Hannibal Smith said, "I love it when a plan comes together".

 

[Deerkins]

Time to stir the pot some more.

Spent 3 days driving over 1k miles throughout the state. Visited several properties in several different counties. Didn't really do any boots-on-the-ground scouting since it's hot and the wife and puppy were tagging along.

Below is a spreadsheet with some information I pulled on each county. Baldwin County is the actual name of the county I reside in and have historically focused most of my efforts hunting. The other 3 counties names have been changed cuz nunyabiznez.

Population - Human Population
Bucks Public 2021 - Number of bucks reported as killed in that county on public property during the 2020-2021 season
Bucks Private 2021 - Number of bucks reported as killed in that county on privately-owned property during the 2020-2021 season
Bucks Total - All total bucks reported as killled during that county during the 2020-2021 season
Total/Population - represents 1 Buck killed per X number of people residing in the county
Public/population - represents 1 buck killed on public property per X number of people residing in the county
P&Y - Number of P&Y typical bucks recorded in the county since 1908. (P&Y has a minimum of 125" to score)
AWR - Number of Alabama Whitetail Record typical bucks recorded in the county. (Has a minimum of 100" to score)
P&Y/AWR - The sum of P&Y and AWR bucks recorded.
PY&AWR/Pop - Represents one "trophy" buck reported per X number of people residing in the county

	Population	Bucks Public 2021	Bucks Private 2021	Bucks Total	Total/Population	Public/Population	Public/Private Bucks	P&Y	AWR	PY&AWR	PY&AWR/Pop
Baldwin	218,022​	79​	2457	2536	85.9708​	2759.7722​		0​	4​	4​	54506​
Hell's Canyon	51,852​	297​	2673	2970	17.4586​	174.5859​	0.1111​	8​	98​	106​	489​
Green Water	23,784​	244​	1194	1438	16.5396​	97.4754​	0.2044​	2​	61​	63​	378​
Barge	20,243​	52​	2098	2150	9.4153​	389.2885​	0.0248​	4​	73​	77​	263​

In Baldwin County, where I live full time in a rural area (my property borders 90k acres of WMA and there is another maybe 3k 15 minutes away) and drive several times a week in the twilight or nighttime hours, I have seen only a handful of does this summer. I have seen maybe 4-5 bucks on the side of the highway in my entire life here. I am able to pull bucks off of public land here, but usually I get one, maybe two chances per season. You'll notice that the trophy numbers are dismal, and the number of bucks killed is not very good relative to the population size.

You'll notice that in Hell's Canyon, there have been something like 25 times as many bucks entered into the P&Y and AWR, and you're apparently more than 10 times as likely to kill a buck on public land (1 buck killed last year per 175 people in Hell's Canyon vs 1 buck killed per 2,759 people in Baldwin County. Interestingly enough, my wife and I had the pleasure of encountering a very tall velvet 8 point with only about 30 minutes of driving down a paved road that ran through that WMA. During broad daylight...in the middle of a hot summer...

In Green Water County, we almost hit a nice little 6 point running across the road at a campground in the middle of several thousand acres of public hunting land. Saw several does. All in broad daylight. Maybe an hour of riding that property.

Barge County; my wife and I visited 3 properties in this county. Maybe an hour to an hour and a half driving paved roads. Each property we visited had does standing around in the open woods or on utility easements.

Again, my home county has deer. People hunt it successfully. I hunt it successfully. But who here if given a choice would kill a 3 day weekend in Baldwin County?

Are the bucks in Baldwin County way smarter than the ones in Hell's Canyon? Or is it just that they're an exponentially greater amount of them up there so it's more likely to cross paths with one? If big bucks are smarter than the general population...are they 10-25 times smarter? Is is better to be an average hunter in a great spot, or a great hunter in an average spot? Where should you focus your limited resources for the greates ROI?

a great hunter, spending a lot of time in an average spot, will generally out produce the other option and here’s why. Although the average spot will have much less target bucks, the much better hunter, will know how to close the distance efficiently and capitalize on those fewer deer.

Covering ground in a poor county compared to a good county, is the key to equalizing the available opportunities between the two, because although county “X” has much less distance between mature bucks than county “Z” , the only real distance that matters in each of them, is the distance from your bow/gun and the buck.. the average hunter will find difficulty closing that distance anywhere.

Now, if a hunter is specifically targeting P and Y sized bucks and there’s only three of them living in their county, they may want to adjust their goals, as there has to be a legitimate chance of finding one..

Home court advantage goes a long way, because although there may be 3 times as many 115”+ deer in the county that’s 3 hours away, how much time can you allocate, to find those deer throughout the year? Whereas, how much time can you spend in your home county to find the right animals?

Now with all that being said, it seems like you live in a really crappy spot to hunt bigger deer and maybe the obstacle of locating one is too large for a normal person, with typical obligations to overcome..

as in my own example, which I think is a typical scenario, of living in an average county in New York, I normally do a lot better in my home hunting area on the per hour hunting basis, than when I hunt out of state in Ohio, which I’ve done for almost a decade

Now Ohio is light years “better” than my home turf, but because I don’t know the land intimately and am not dedicating the required hours throughout the year, to locating/scouting, my home record outshines what I’ve been able to do there...

 

[Nutterbuster]

I will say honestly that taking true "trophies" has never meant all much to me. If it did I would be making trips to Iowa, Kansas, Ohio, etc. every year. I am fully aware that the "trophy potential" of the woods I hunt in are limited to the 120-130 inch bucks. That said, those are the animals I'm targeting now-a-days. When my family was younger and I didn't have as much vacation available I hunted hard locally with only occasional trips out of county. That is all that the requirements of my life at the time allowed me to do. As I've implied . . . I eventually got bored shooting the 1.5 year old bucks. It really did become all too easy. I wanted more challenge so I now target the upper age class animals in my area. Whether they're a greater challenge because of their experience or scarcity is impossible for me to determine. I'm not in their head and I don't fully know their numbers . . .I can only postulate a theory based on experience. I do know they are a harder ticket to punch for whatever the reason.

Now that my wife and I are empty nesters and my accrued vacation schedule allows me more time to be away I have moved to hunting mostly remote in a couple of counties that I hunted as youngster. That does a few things for me. First, these counties have had APRs in place a bit longer so the age class is a bit better . . . not a lot but a bit. Second, I know these woods like the back of my hand. Over four decades of hunting there allow me to know where to expect bedding, travel corridors and food sources. Third, I sill have some lifelong hunting buddies (and now their kids) in the area and while we don't necessarily hunt together, we still enjoy each others company and discussing the days hunt over a cold beverage or a cup of coffee.

Edit: I'm aware the above paragraph equates to my "comfort zone". The fact of the matter is I hunt for personal enjoyment. It is my past time and hobby. I don't need to push the boundaries of my comfort zone to thoroughly enjoy my time in the woods. Nor do I need to even kill a deer to have a successful season.

Trophy hunter . . nah. I'm just a guy looking to spend as much time in the woods pursuing the most elusive of the whitetails I can find. I spend the summer and early season trying to locate these "elite" animals in my hunting area and then work to try to put them on the ground. The challenge becomes one of targeting a few specific animals and trying to strategize the best means to put them down. The thrill come when, as Hannibal Smith said, "I love it when a plan comes together".

I feel that. The two deer I'm proudest of are two of my smallest bucks. Theyre the first 2 bucks I killed by myself, on local public land, and not by accident. I explored every inch of that property, found out what was happening, picked a spot, and like magic...there's the buck.

That said, it's also been fun to drive a few hours and find bigger deer and kill them too. Same process. Information accumulation, pattern recognition, adjusting your actions to capitalize on said pattern, results.

Very satisfying. I guess that's my general message I'd like to get across. If you do the steps I just listed and don't shoot some deer you like...go peddle your wares in a different town.

 

[Robert loper]

Love this thread. My credentials = 1 buck which would just barely squeak out 100 inches, so not a pro. I think what nutterbuster (and me) wants to hear is for someone to quantify this “mature bucks are a completely different animal,” rhetoric that we hear all the time. I could definitely subscribe to an explanation that the mature ones are just simply less tolerant of intrusion like Kyhunter mentioned. If I go simply by my trail cam data, i get does and small bucks on camera daily, but the big guys only once a week max. This is even during the summer with no hunter pressure. They seem to be more comfortable switching their schedule and travel directions a lot more than other deer. Definitely want to keep hearing from you more experienced folks.

I would like to clarify that a mature buck can also be under 120-100 inches.
I believe inches is from nutrition snd good genes snd whatever else deer need to grow big snd huge inches.
Not every mature buck is the same.
I have kiiled many mature bucks over the years that inches did not reach 120.
my biggest is probably 120 and he was aged by a biologist then again by my taxidermist to be 8 years old.
Ive Killed a bunch of 4-5 year olds and a few 6 year olds.
they just dont get Wisconsin or Iowa big here.
We are ranked 49th in p&y registered bucks every year.
eating backyard hostas and garden forbs dont help.
I think it really depends on where you are. Back in extreme south jersey these marsh beach bucks just dont have the nutrition or hiding places to reach over 120 or so.
A 120lb buck is a slammer and your doing something.
I dont claim to be an expert but ya just can not kill Something that just isn't there.
i think with the whole public land mature buck trend going on people get stuck into thinking that there is super mature bucks running around evetywhere and if ya do it like a certain group or team you will get one.
Thst is far far from being realistic
Deer especially bucks have personalities thst i compare to dogs.
some are scared some are brave, hyper, laid back, loud, quiet etc.
bucks learn to hide very quickly snd if thet dont they die.
so yes to me a mature buck is almost like hunting another kind animal. The age is where they have been seasoned to survive. I will say this whitetsils adapt and survive almost anywhere. Awesome creatures.