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Thoughts on My First Year "Trophy Hunting"

Nut, I just stumbled onto this thread. You seem pretty passionate about your hunting. I too have made life changing decisions based on my hunting. You name it. Women, job, career, education, residence etc. 1st I thing I want to say is that I think that with you having 41 kills that if I turned you loose on my property for a week during the rut that you would probably kill a P & Y buck. IMO 90% of being successfull is just being in the woods. A phrase I like to say is "You can't kill em' on the couch". If you put your time in outdoors, your gonna kill one eventually.The other 10% is skill. and woodsmanship. It sounds like you have that 10%. Now to the rest of your theory. I'm not any smarter than when I was a horny 18 year old kid 30+ years ago. I have same IQ as I did then. However I'm definitely wiser. Over the years I've learned what worked and what didn't. Back then I would've starved if my life depended on me killing a deer. ANY deer! Lucklily I found a good mentor and my success rate went up from 0 to marginal but at least I was getting a few kills now and then to keep the fire going. The rest I picked up over time. Now I could probably kill a buck every time I go out if I do my part. I definitely wouldn't starve. Now think about an animal where his very life depends on him learning to survive. Day in day out he's under constant threat for his survival especially on public land. The dumb ones get dead. The lucky ones learn and live. Back in my ALD days, I once had a Y buck follow my scent path right to the tree. He was so curious that He got himself a free ride in my pickup. A mature buck that's been hunted will NEVER do that. He's learned a few things. He's not any smarter than the other deer he's just learned what works to survive. If you hunt a state that allows deer drives, you can see the smart ones. The youngs ones bust out into the open get killed. The bucks that have survived a few drives or seasons, those bucks are usually killed(if they are killed at all!) when they doing something sneaky like sneaking out the side or holding tight and doubling back through the drivers once they pass. They have learned that stealth is their best option. Actually I think this applies to ALL mature deer. Buck and does. There are old deer and there are bold deer but IMO there are no old AND bold deer! Anyway that's just this man's opinion based on 40 years of being in the deer woods.
 
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I think people may be splitting hairs between smarter and wiser when a lot of people simply use the terms interchangeably being this is a hunting forum not an english class.

There is no doubt a mature buck is wiser (smarter) than a young buck. To kill them regularly you 100% have to hunt them differently than you would a young buck/doe.

Amazed a guy whose hunted awhile and killed a lot of deer (but no true trophy class bucks) would think differently. Shouldnt that guy already be killing trophy bucks every year if his theory actually applies that mature bucks are no different than young bucks and require no different strategy than those young deer?
 
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1simplemann said:
Nut, I just stumbled onto this thread. You seem pretty passionate about your hunting. I too have made life changing decisions based on my hunting. You name it. Women, job, career, education, residence etc. 1st I thing I want to say is that I think that with you having 41 kills that if I turned you loose on my property for a week during the rut that you would probably kill a P & Y buck. IMO 90% of being successfull is just being in the woods. A phrase I like to say is "You can't kill em' on the couch". If you put your time in outdoors, your gonna kill one eventually.The other 10% is skill. and woodsmanship.
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I agree and disagree with that statement. Depends on the property you are hunting. For me here in the big woods of Pennsylvania you can spend every day in the mountains and not see a deer if you do not have the knowledge, skill and woodsmanship. To kill a 'big buck' here in the big mountains you need more than just time off the couch. You need to know HOW to kill those big mountain buck. Again, different terrains but I was after the general statement. I would state that the woods I hunt its a much higher % than 10% of skill needed to get that 'big buck'.
 
swampdonkey said:
It’s going to be fun revisiting this thread at the end of the season.
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I'm not afraid to put my pride on the line here. Folks who've been on here for a few years know I love me a good jibber jabber and being on the winning team in the hunting contests. :)

But, since I feel like the quality of the thread has degraded some, I'd like to shift focus a bit.

Early on (back on page 1) the question was raised as to what was a "trophy" or "mature" deer. I hadn't really dialed that in at the time, but after some research here are my thoughts on those animals in my state.

I have had several hunts on Alabama Special Opportunity Areas. Each year the biologist in charge of these hunts has sent me the following pdf:


the basic gist is that a "mature" (legal) buck on these more heavily managed properties should have antlers that grow past his ear tips when viewed head-on and out to his nose when viewed from the side. Specifically, the regulations there read that bucks must have a 16" inside spread or an 18" main beam. While researching Mississippi WMAs, I noticed that the better ones there that were draw-only had essentially the same requirements. I have been told by the district biologist that these restrictions have been judged to be appropriate to ensure that bucks harvested are 4.5 years old or older, ensuring that they have reached at least 90% of their growth potential on average.

I have been responsible for the death of 3 deer in the past 2 that hit this criteria. I killed one last year and the year before, and I put my dad on one as well (he killed it on the first sit with no scouting. I just told him, "sit here" after 1 day of scouting it myself). I am not claiming to be an expert scorer, but putting a tape on these deer put them around 110-115" typical. Each deer was aged by a state biologist at 4.5 years old or better.

Alabama DCNR does not have a trophy buck registry of any kind. There was a private record-keeping organization (Alabama Whitetail Records) but it is sadly defunct and while I once had access to the data I never made the effort to transcribe it and save it to my own records. But, I have the following info from our neighboring states:

Mississippi - minimum score of 125" typical
Florida - minimum score of 100" typical
Tennessee - minimum score of 115" typical
Georgia - minimum score of 120" typical

If you calculate the arithmetic mean of these numbers, you arrive at 117" as an average minimum score for the Gulf Coast region I hunt. You'll notice Mississippi has a higher threshold and Florida has a very low one. Based on the studying I've done of those states' county records and soil maps, I'm attributing it to Mississippi having large areas with fertile river floodplains and Florida being predominately quartz sand and clay. My home county and the county where I have a 120 acre lease both border Florida and share that sandy soil. The SOA and many of the counties with better trophy numbers I've been scouting this year are in areas where there are fertile flood plains. So we have a mix of habitat and the average trophy size should vary in different regions.

Based on this I would say that for my purposes, anything in my home or lease county that makes over `100" is a trophy. In the more prime habitat, I would say around the 115" mark would be the threshold, with the potential to go into the 120s. Higher is of course possible, but a perusal of records shows that there are exponentially more deer in the 100-130 range than in the 140+ category, even in Mississippi.

I would also say that everything I have read indicates antler growth peaks at around 5.5-6.5 years, and hits around 90% at 4.5. It's $75 to have up to 5 teeth submited for cementum aging at Matson's Laboratory. I plan on trying to extract a tooth from any bucks I shoot to send them for aging. If I shoot a deer that makes 4.5 or better, that's a mature deer regardless of antler size.

I feel pretty comfortable with my criteria given above in bold, but I have also emailed the head state biologist and each of our 5 district biologists inquiring as to whether they have an opinion as to what is a trophy buck in their jurisdiction.

For giggles, below are some images of bucks I've shot over the years and some brief description of them. I don't have age/score on all of them but where I have the info it's provided.


1st up is the only mature buck I shot last year. Open permit public land. Shot him the 2nd weekend of season being super smart....eating acorns under the same tree I shot a 3 point the weekend before. Can't remember the weight, but I rough scored him at 116 gross. State biologist aged him at 5.5 or better based on tooth wear. He made both the 16" inside spread and the 18" main beam criteria.

116 buck.jpg

Here is a similar buck killed on private property on the Alabama River. Good picture of a good deer and some bad hair. He looks bigger than the above buck but I rough scored him at 105 gross. The above buck had better mass I guess. He was being super sneaky trailing a hot doe along a creek bottom at around 3:30pm during peak rut. Was so smart he ate a bullet maybe 20 yards away from a smelly hippy kid in a 10ft high ladder stand.

camden buck.jpg

Next up is a great example of a Florida trophy taken by my dear-ole-dad. No antler score, but he might hit 100". This buck was 132lbs live on the hoof and jawbone aged at 7.5 years old. The club he was taken from borders Florida and had a 4-on-one-side rule for the years we hunted it. He got killed on a gas line foodplot having a midday snack.

dad's 1st buck.jpg

Another one from my dad. Putting him on this public land buck has been one of the highlights of my hunting "career." Judged to be 5.5 years old. I want to say he rough-scored about 120 gross. One of the biggest deer I've personally had the pleasure of seeing here. This deer was eating on a green field with several other young bucks and does during early rifle season (Notice the super stylish leather work boots paired with bermuda shorts. Scent-free is the way to be!). Granted, he did show up late...but not late enough.
dad's buck.jpg

This buck came off of our private lease. He doesn't look like much, but he was missing his back left leg from about the knee down. We had him on camera regularly at night at a corn feeder for 3 seasons and in 3 seasons he never grew his rack. We didn't age him but I'd say he was around the 120lb mark and I'd guess he was at least 5.5 years old based on having pics of him as a rack buck for 3 seasons. Notice the timber pines with recent logging activity. He was working a fresh scrapeline about 200 yards off of the corn feeder he was so dependent on. I will say this buck was very good at avoiding us. In 3 years I don't know that we ever had a daytime picture of him.
gimpy buck.jpg

I don't have any real info on this deer. I'd say he's around 100-110 gross but won't be hurt if somebody disagrees. Never bothered to tape him. He was bedded with a doe on a shell midden (high ground) bordering a tupelo/cypress river swamp. He was in a good bedding area surrounded on 4 sides by water and swamp, but I have shot several deer and hogs within a few yards of where he was laying. Public land buck.
gulf coast buck 2.jpg

Another Florida/South Alabama buck. He didn't have a lot of mass and I'm guessing he's a 2.5-3yo buck at most. Killed him within 100 yards of the buck pictured above. He was following a scrape line bordering the palmetto bedding around 9am during peak rut.
gulf coast buck.jpg
Another Alabama River buck. Killed nearby where the first buck pictured and my dad's buck got killed. He was aged at 4.5 by a state biologist. tapes around 100" and just barely met the 18" main beam requirement. Fell 1" short of the 16" inside spread requirement but was still legal. He got shot about an hour before dark traveling a transition line between some row pines and an open hardwood area. He was roughly headed to the same plot my dad's deer was killed on and would have probably arrived to that area after dark. I picked that stand because I had seen 2 bucks following a doe in the thick row pines earlier that day. My thought process was to just get between those pines and what was apparently the preferred food source in that area.
portland buck.jpg

I'm posting this mainly to give an idea of what mature, public land deer look like in my experience on local public land, but also to provide anecdotal evidence to people who believe in it that you DO NOT have to think beyond feed, breed, and hide to kill nice bucks. None of these bucks were doing super-sneaky things...just regular ole deer activities. My dad and I are very simple hunters. We will hunt destination food areas (man-made or natural) first, and if we don't get results we start backtracking what we think are travel routes to areas that we believe are bedding.

I aim to purchase a Mississippi license this year in addition to my Alabama one. I can kill 3 deer in each state. My goal is going to be to kill at least 2 and preferably 6 deer that score at least 100-120" or 4.5+ years old this year. I aim to do it by picking public properties that show good potential for older bucks based on readily-available harvest and trophy statistics, and hunting those areas with the idea in mind that deer are simple animals who live to feed, breed, and hide.

If I succeed all y'all haters gotta chip in and buy my license to Wisconsin, Illinois, or Iowa, whichever's cheaper. And you have to listen to me rub it in. If I fail I'll change my profile pic to me in a dunce's cap sitting on a stool facing the corner. And listen to y'all rub it in.

I plan on taking this challenge about as seriously as my "20 deer challenge" last year. Which means I'll probably take it really serious until wood ducks start flying by my window every morning...
 
I’d still maintain they leave “security cover” to feed later and get back earlier than young deer on average. Especially outside the rut. Depends on hunting pressure though. I’ve seen them come out early on private land.
 
swampdonkey said:
So we aren’t talking about Trophy whitetails in general but more like Trophy Coues Deer or making adjustments on where a guy hunts?

P&Y minimum score for Whiteteil is 125”. That’s the bare minimum a buck would classify as a trophy anything less is just a nice deer.
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For those following along, above is an example of the "Midwest bias" so common in the deer hunting world.

In Midwestern states where the Missouri and Mississippi floodplains that are the heart of our nation's agriculture produce bigger deer, more and bigger trophies are killed. This leads hunters local to this area to sometimes make uninformed assumptions about deer in other areas. There is a substantial difference in the size/quantity of bucks throughout the country. How substantial? Let's look

https://saddlehunter.com/community/index.php?threads/nutterbuster-spreads-sheets-it-wide-open.39618/

The above thread is similarly entertaining/informative to this one. You can read through peoples' thoughts on the trophy data (both pro and con) there if you're interested. What does it have to say about Donkey's state vs NuttyBuddy's?

Wisconsin ranks #1 in sheer number of P&Y bucks harvested in a given state with 12,786 bucks in the books. Alabama ranks #24 with a much more modest 185. When we examine population and area, Wisconsin has 1 book buck per 455 citizens or per 5 square miles. Alabama has 1 book buck per 26,503 citizens or per 283 square miles.

So either Wisconsin has an exponentially dumber mature buck herd, an exponentially smarter hunter population, or exponentially more bucks running around waiting to be shot by somebody.

It's also worth looking at the size of the trophies harvested. Alabama's largest P&Y buck grossed at 174". I whipped up a spreadsheet with all 185 bucks (easy peasy) and got a mean, median, and mode of 139, 137, and 134. Wisconsin's largest buck grossed 214, or 40" larger than the best Alabama has to offer. That's a striking difference. The mean, median and mode (and that spreadsheet took a liiiitttttlllle more time to make) are 145, 143, and 137. Not as striking but still substantial. Also worth noting that Wisconsin has 313 book bucks that meet or exceed Alabama's all-time record.

"Trophy" is a subjective word. Why did P&Y pick 125"? Who knows. Nice, round number I suppose. But a 125" deer is MUCH more impressive in most parts of the world than it is in Wisconsin, Illinois, Iowa, and the rest of the midwest. And a 100" deer may be a decent buck to let a kid shoot in those areas, but a genuinely rare and exciting buck for a seasoned hunter in a place like Florida or Vermont. So I believe there is some merit to analyzing your local herd and trying to get a feel for what a trophy is in your area.

For anybody not hunting the midwest...please take what you hear and read about trophy deer from midwestern hunters with a grain of salt.
 
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P&Y only includes archery equipment and lack of corn feeders :tearsofjoy: :smilingimp: Prove your point on equal ground or it’s jibber jabber and a subjective view...just busting nutts lol
 
The thing you have to understand about Wisconsin is besides farm fields, it only has beer, cheese and porn shops. As such, the bucks have a greater chance of bulking up on grains from the fields and bottle, protein from the cheese and are too porned up to care during the rut.
 
rhagenw said:
P&Y only includes archery equipment and lack of corn feeders :tearsofjoy: :smilingimp: Prove your point on equal ground or it’s jibber jabber and a subjective view...just busting nutts lol
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Good point. B&C starts at what, 140 or 160? So a "trophy" changes based on perceived increased difficulty. Does that mean there should be adjustments made for deer harvested on public vs private land? What about deer harvested by folks who make less than 40k annually? Folks with kids? Folks who hunt from buckets? Or folks who get outsmarted by goats?
 
boyne bowhunter said:
I will say honestly that taking true "trophies" has never meant all much to me. If it did I would be making trips to Iowa, Kansas, Ohio, etc. every year. I am fully aware that the "trophy potential" of the woods I hunt in are limited to the 120-130 inch bucks. That said, those are the animals I'm targeting now-a-days. When my family was younger and I didn't have as much vacation available I hunted hard locally with only occasional trips out of county. That is all that the requirements of my life at the time allowed me to do. As I've implied . . . I eventually got bored shooting the 1.5 year old bucks. It really did become all too easy. I wanted more challenge so I now target the upper age class animals in my area. Whether they're a greater challenge because of their experience or scarcity is impossible for me to determine. I'm not in their head and I don't fully know their numbers . . .I can only postulate a theory based on experience. I do know they are a harder ticket to punch for whatever the reason.

Now that my wife and I are empty nesters and my accrued vacation schedule allows me more time to be away I have moved to hunting mostly remote in a couple of counties that I hunted as youngster. That does a few things for me. First, these counties have had APRs in place a bit longer so the age class is a bit better . . . not a lot but a bit. Second, I know these woods like the back of my hand. Over four decades of hunting there allow me to know where to expect bedding, travel corridors and food sources. Third, I sill have some lifelong hunting buddies (and now their kids) in the area and while we don't necessarily hunt together, we still enjoy each others company and discussing the days hunt over a cold beverage or a cup of coffee.

Edit: I'm aware the above paragraph equates to my "comfort zone". The fact of the matter is I hunt for personal enjoyment. It is my past time and hobby. I don't need to push the boundaries of my comfort zone to thoroughly enjoy my time in the woods. Nor do I need to even kill a deer to have a successful season.

Trophy hunter . . nah. I'm just a guy looking to spend as much time in the woods pursuing the most elusive of the whitetails I can find. I spend the summer and early season trying to locate these "elite" animals in my hunting area and then work to try to put them on the ground. The challenge becomes one of targeting a few specific animals and trying to strategize the best means to put them down. The thrill come when, as Hannibal Smith said, "I love it when a plan comes together". :)
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Ditto brother!!!
 
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