I’m digging the amount of research you did on this. Thx for sharing all this.
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Thoughts on My First Year "Trophy Hunting"
- Thread starter Nutterbuster
- Start date
I thought the #1 thing was to hunt in the right place...
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- Jan 17, 2019
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- 6,284
I'm not afraid to put my pride on the line here. Folks who've been on here for a few years know I love me a good jibber jabber and being on the winning team in the hunting contests.
But, since I feel like the quality of the thread has degraded some, I'd like to shift focus a bit.
Early on (back on page 1) the question was raised as to what was a "trophy" or "mature" deer. I hadn't really dialed that in at the time, but after some research here are my thoughts on those animals in my state.
I have had several hunts on Alabama Special Opportunity Areas. Each year the biologist in charge of these hunts has sent me the following pdf:
the basic gist is that a "mature" (legal) buck on these more heavily managed properties should have antlers that grow past his ear tips when viewed head-on and out to his nose when viewed from the side. Specifically, the regulations there read that bucks must have a 16" inside spread or an 18" main beam. While researching Mississippi WMAs, I noticed that the better ones there that were draw-only had essentially the same requirements. I have been told by the district biologist that these restrictions have been judged to be appropriate to ensure that bucks harvested are 4.5 years old or older, ensuring that they have reached at least 90% of their growth potential on average.
I have been responsible for the death of 3 deer in the past 2 that hit this criteria. I killed one last year and the year before, and I put my dad on one as well (he killed it on the first sit with no scouting. I just told him, "sit here" after 1 day of scouting it myself). I am not claiming to be an expert scorer, but putting a tape on these deer put them around 110-115" typical. Each deer was aged by a state biologist at 4.5 years old or better.
Alabama DCNR does not have a trophy buck registry of any kind. There was a private record-keeping organization (Alabama Whitetail Records) but it is sadly defunct and while I once had access to the data I never made the effort to transcribe it and save it to my own records. But, I have the following info from our neighboring states:
Mississippi - minimum score of 125" typical
Florida - minimum score of 100" typical
Tennessee - minimum score of 115" typical
Georgia - minimum score of 120" typical
If you calculate the arithmetic mean of these numbers, you arrive at 117" as an average minimum score for the Gulf Coast region I hunt. You'll notice Mississippi has a higher threshold and Florida has a very low one. Based on the studying I've done of those states' county records and soil maps, I'm attributing it to Mississippi having large areas with fertile river floodplains and Florida being predominately quartz sand and clay. My home county and the county where I have a 120 acre lease both border Florida and share that sandy soil. The SOA and many of the counties with better trophy numbers I've been scouting this year are in areas where there are fertile flood plains. So we have a mix of habitat and the average trophy size should vary in different regions.
Based on this I would say that for my purposes, anything in my home or lease county that makes over `100" is a trophy. In the more prime habitat, I would say around the 115" mark would be the threshold, with the potential to go into the 120s. Higher is of course possible, but a perusal of records shows that there are exponentially more deer in the 100-130 range than in the 140+ category, even in Mississippi.
I would also say that everything I have read indicates antler growth peaks at around 5.5-6.5 years, and hits around 90% at 4.5. It's $75 to have up to 5 teeth submited for cementum aging at Matson's Laboratory. I plan on trying to extract a tooth from any bucks I shoot to send them for aging. If I shoot a deer that makes 4.5 or better, that's a mature deer regardless of antler size.
I feel pretty comfortable with my criteria given above in bold, but I have also emailed the head state biologist and each of our 5 district biologists inquiring as to whether they have an opinion as to what is a trophy buck in their jurisdiction.
For giggles, below are some images of bucks I've shot over the years and some brief description of them. I don't have age/score on all of them but where I have the info it's provided.
1st up is the only mature buck I shot last year. Open permit public land. Shot him the 2nd weekend of season being super smart....eating acorns under the same tree I shot a 3 point the weekend before. Can't remember the weight, but I rough scored him at 116 gross. State biologist aged him at 5.5 or better based on tooth wear. He made both the 16" inside spread and the 18" main beam criteria.
View attachment 52510
Here is a similar buck killed on private property on the Alabama River. Good picture of a good deer and some bad hair. He looks bigger than the above buck but I rough scored him at 105 gross. The above buck had better mass I guess. He was being super sneaky trailing a hot doe along a creek bottom at around 3:30pm during peak rut. Was so smart he ate a bullet maybe 20 yards away from a smelly hippy kid in a 10ft high ladder stand.
View attachment 52511
Next up is a great example of a Florida trophy taken by my dear-ole-dad. No antler score, but he might hit 100". This buck was 132lbs live on the hoof and jawbone aged at 7.5 years old. The club he was taken from borders Florida and had a 4-on-one-side rule for the years we hunted it. He got killed on a gas line foodplot having a midday snack.
View attachment 52512
Another one from my dad. Putting him on this public land buck has been one of the highlights of my hunting "career." Judged to be 5.5 years old. I want to say he rough-scored about 120 gross. One of the biggest deer I've personally had the pleasure of seeing here. This deer was eating on a green field with several other young bucks and does during early rifle season (Notice the super stylish leather work boots paired with bermuda shorts. Scent-free is the way to be!). Granted, he did show up late...but not late enough.
View attachment 52513
This buck came off of our private lease. He doesn't look like much, but he was missing his back left leg from about the knee down. We had him on camera regularly at night at a corn feeder for 3 seasons and in 3 seasons he never grew his rack. We didn't age him but I'd say he was around the 120lb mark and I'd guess he was at least 5.5 years old based on having pics of him as a rack buck for 3 seasons. Notice the timber pines with recent logging activity. He was working a fresh scrapeline about 200 yards off of the corn feeder he was so dependent on. I will say this buck was very good at avoiding us. In 3 years I don't know that we ever had a daytime picture of him.
View attachment 52514
I don't have any real info on this deer. I'd say he's around 100-110 gross but won't be hurt if somebody disagrees. Never bothered to tape him. He was bedded with a doe on a shell midden (high ground) bordering a tupelo/cypress river swamp. He was in a good bedding area surrounded on 4 sides by water and swamp, but I have shot several deer and hogs within a few yards of where he was laying. Public land buck.
View attachment 52515
Another Florida/South Alabama buck. He didn't have a lot of mass and I'm guessing he's a 2.5-3yo buck at most. Killed him within 100 yards of the buck pictured above. He was following a scrape line bordering the palmetto bedding around 9am during peak rut.
View attachment 52516
Another Alabama River buck. Killed nearby where the first buck pictured and my dad's buck got killed. He was aged at 4.5 by a state biologist. tapes around 100" and just barely met the 18" main beam requirement. Fell 1" short of the 16" inside spread requirement but was still legal. He got shot about an hour before dark traveling a transition line between some row pines and an open hardwood area. He was roughly headed to the same plot my dad's deer was killed on and would have probably arrived to that area after dark. I picked that stand because I had seen 2 bucks following a doe in the thick row pines earlier that day. My thought process was to just get between those pines and what was apparently the preferred food source in that area.
View attachment 52517
I'm posting this mainly to give an idea of what mature, public land deer look like in my experience on local public land, but also to provide anecdotal evidence to people who believe in it that you DO NOT have to think beyond feed, breed, and hide to kill nice bucks. None of these bucks were doing super-sneaky things...just regular ole deer activities. My dad and I are very simple hunters. We will hunt destination food areas (man-made or natural) first, and if we don't get results we start backtracking what we think are travel routes to areas that we believe are bedding.
I aim to purchase a Mississippi license this year in addition to my Alabama one. I can kill 3 deer in each state. My goal is going to be to kill at least 2 and preferably 6 deer that score at least 100-120" or 4.5+ years old this year. I aim to do it by picking public properties that show good potential for older bucks based on readily-available harvest and trophy statistics, and hunting those areas with the idea in mind that deer are simple animals who live to feed, breed, and hide.
If I succeed all y'all haters gotta chip in and buy my license to Wisconsin, Illinois, or Iowa, whichever's cheaper. And you have to listen to me rub it in. If I fail I'll change my profile pic to me in a dunce's cap sitting on a stool facing the corner. And listen to y'all rub it in.
I plan on taking this challenge about as seriously as my "20 deer challenge" last year. Which means I'll probably take it really serious until wood ducks start flying by my window every morning...
These are about exactly like mature WV public land bucks.
swampdonkey
Well-Known Member
PLENTY of Deer MUCH bigger than 100” killed in Alabama and Miss what are you talking about now?
Sorry if it upsets you but P&Y is 125 whether it’s WI or Alabama. That’s just a fact.
If 100” is a trophy to you that’s awesome, kill away. But don’t expect me to fly you up to WI cause you shot a 100” buck cause that aint happening.
But i’d never cut on a guys deer that HE thinks is a trophy, 100” in your case.
I hope you find your 100” buck and actually agree with you that they are as easy to kill as a fawn or doe.
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Jwiggins762
Well-Known Member
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- 1,203
swampdonkey
Well-Known Member
I don’t hunt Alabama so looked it up. P&Y don’t accept High Fence so yeah, PLENTY of bucks MUCH bigger than 100” in Alabama.
I'm not afraid to put my pride on the line here. Folks who've been on here for a few years know I love me a good jibber jabber and being on the winning team in the hunting contests.
But, since I feel like the quality of the thread has degraded some, I'd like to shift focus a bit.
Early on (back on page 1) the question was raised as to what was a "trophy" or "mature" deer. I hadn't really dialed that in at the time, but after some research here are my thoughts on those animals in my state.
I have had several hunts on Alabama Special Opportunity Areas. Each year the biologist in charge of these hunts has sent me the following pdf:
the basic gist is that a "mature" (legal) buck on these more heavily managed properties should have antlers that grow past his ear tips when viewed head-on and out to his nose when viewed from the side. Specifically, the regulations there read that bucks must have a 16" inside spread or an 18" main beam. While researching Mississippi WMAs, I noticed that the better ones there that were draw-only had essentially the same requirements. I have been told by the district biologist that these restrictions have been judged to be appropriate to ensure that bucks harvested are 4.5 years old or older, ensuring that they have reached at least 90% of their growth potential on average.
I have been responsible for the death of 3 deer in the past 2 that hit this criteria. I killed one last year and the year before, and I put my dad on one as well (he killed it on the first sit with no scouting. I just told him, "sit here" after 1 day of scouting it myself). I am not claiming to be an expert scorer, but putting a tape on these deer put them around 110-115" typical. Each deer was aged by a state biologist at 4.5 years old or better.
Alabama DCNR does not have a trophy buck registry of any kind. There was a private record-keeping organization (Alabama Whitetail Records) but it is sadly defunct and while I once had access to the data I never made the effort to transcribe it and save it to my own records. But, I have the following info from our neighboring states:
Mississippi - minimum score of 125" typical
Florida - minimum score of 100" typical
Tennessee - minimum score of 115" typical
Georgia - minimum score of 120" typical
If you calculate the arithmetic mean of these numbers, you arrive at 117" as an average minimum score for the Gulf Coast region I hunt. You'll notice Mississippi has a higher threshold and Florida has a very low one. Based on the studying I've done of those states' county records and soil maps, I'm attributing it to Mississippi having large areas with fertile river floodplains and Florida being predominately quartz sand and clay. My home county and the county where I have a 120 acre lease both border Florida and share that sandy soil. The SOA and many of the counties with better trophy numbers I've been scouting this year are in areas where there are fertile flood plains. So we have a mix of habitat and the average trophy size should vary in different regions.
Based on this I would say that for my purposes, anything in my home or lease county that makes over `100" is a trophy. In the more prime habitat, I would say around the 115" mark would be the threshold, with the potential to go into the 120s. Higher is of course possible, but a perusal of records shows that there are exponentially more deer in the 100-130 range than in the 140+ category, even in Mississippi.
I would also say that everything I have read indicates antler growth peaks at around 5.5-6.5 years, and hits around 90% at 4.5. It's $75 to have up to 5 teeth submited for cementum aging at Matson's Laboratory. I plan on trying to extract a tooth from any bucks I shoot to send them for aging. If I shoot a deer that makes 4.5 or better, that's a mature deer regardless of antler size.
I feel pretty comfortable with my criteria given above in bold, but I have also emailed the head state biologist and each of our 5 district biologists inquiring as to whether they have an opinion as to what is a trophy buck in their jurisdiction.
For giggles, below are some images of bucks I've shot over the years and some brief description of them. I don't have age/score on all of them but where I have the info it's provided.
1st up is the only mature buck I shot last year. Open permit public land. Shot him the 2nd weekend of season being super smart....eating acorns under the same tree I shot a 3 point the weekend before. Can't remember the weight, but I rough scored him at 116 gross. State biologist aged him at 5.5 or better based on tooth wear. He made both the 16" inside spread and the 18" main beam criteria.
View attachment 52510
Here is a similar buck killed on private property on the Alabama River. Good picture of a good deer and some bad hair. He looks bigger than the above buck but I rough scored him at 105 gross. The above buck had better mass I guess. He was being super sneaky trailing a hot doe along a creek bottom at around 3:30pm during peak rut. Was so smart he ate a bullet maybe 20 yards away from a smelly hippy kid in a 10ft high ladder stand.
View attachment 52511
Next up is a great example of a Florida trophy taken by my dear-ole-dad. No antler score, but he might hit 100". This buck was 132lbs live on the hoof and jawbone aged at 7.5 years old. The club he was taken from borders Florida and had a 4-on-one-side rule for the years we hunted it. He got killed on a gas line foodplot having a midday snack.
View attachment 52512
Another one from my dad. Putting him on this public land buck has been one of the highlights of my hunting "career." Judged to be 5.5 years old. I want to say he rough-scored about 120 gross. One of the biggest deer I've personally had the pleasure of seeing here. This deer was eating on a green field with several other young bucks and does during early rifle season (Notice the super stylish leather work boots paired with bermuda shorts. Scent-free is the way to be!). Granted, he did show up late...but not late enough.
View attachment 52513
This buck came off of our private lease. He doesn't look like much, but he was missing his back left leg from about the knee down. We had him on camera regularly at night at a corn feeder for 3 seasons and in 3 seasons he never grew his rack. We didn't age him but I'd say he was around the 120lb mark and I'd guess he was at least 5.5 years old based on having pics of him as a rack buck for 3 seasons. Notice the timber pines with recent logging activity. He was working a fresh scrapeline about 200 yards off of the corn feeder he was so dependent on. I will say this buck was very good at avoiding us. In 3 years I don't know that we ever had a daytime picture of him.
View attachment 52514
I don't have any real info on this deer. I'd say he's around 100-110 gross but won't be hurt if somebody disagrees. Never bothered to tape him. He was bedded with a doe on a shell midden (high ground) bordering a tupelo/cypress river swamp. He was in a good bedding area surrounded on 4 sides by water and swamp, but I have shot several deer and hogs within a few yards of where he was laying. Public land buck.
View attachment 52515
Another Florida/South Alabama buck. He didn't have a lot of mass and I'm guessing he's a 2.5-3yo buck at most. Killed him within 100 yards of the buck pictured above. He was following a scrape line bordering the palmetto bedding around 9am during peak rut.
View attachment 52516
Another Alabama River buck. Killed nearby where the first buck pictured and my dad's buck got killed. He was aged at 4.5 by a state biologist. tapes around 100" and just barely met the 18" main beam requirement. Fell 1" short of the 16" inside spread requirement but was still legal. He got shot about an hour before dark traveling a transition line between some row pines and an open hardwood area. He was roughly headed to the same plot my dad's deer was killed on and would have probably arrived to that area after dark. I picked that stand because I had seen 2 bucks following a doe in the thick row pines earlier that day. My thought process was to just get between those pines and what was apparently the preferred food source in that area.
View attachment 52517
I'm posting this mainly to give an idea of what mature, public land deer look like in my experience on local public land, but also to provide anecdotal evidence to people who believe in it that you DO NOT have to think beyond feed, breed, and hide to kill nice bucks. None of these bucks were doing super-sneaky things...just regular ole deer activities. My dad and I are very simple hunters. We will hunt destination food areas (man-made or natural) first, and if we don't get results we start backtracking what we think are travel routes to areas that we believe are bedding.
I aim to purchase a Mississippi license this year in addition to my Alabama one. I can kill 3 deer in each state. My goal is going to be to kill at least 2 and preferably 6 deer that score at least 100-120" or 4.5+ years old this year. I aim to do it by picking public properties that show good potential for older bucks based on readily-available harvest and trophy statistics, and hunting those areas with the idea in mind that deer are simple animals who live to feed, breed, and hide.
If I succeed all y'all haters gotta chip in and buy my license to Wisconsin, Illinois, or Iowa, whichever's cheaper. And you have to listen to me rub it in. If I fail I'll change my profile pic to me in a dunce's cap sitting on a stool facing the corner. And listen to y'all rub it in.
I plan on taking this challenge about as seriously as my "20 deer challenge" last year. Which means I'll probably take it really serious until wood ducks start flying by my window every morning...
As a skeptic, I love this logic, breakdown, and explanation. And I’m enjoying this thread and nuts usual enthusiasm. I also fully encourage the idea of having the deer aged and letting that be the great equalizer. It will help circumnavigate regional variations in antler and body size to some extent. Finally, that is a nice deer your sister shot.
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B&C is 180? So it does increase..another thread with bickering and woe is me! It’s my season opener in a “trophy state”! You will be seeing me on the cover of whitetail magazine!
I'm pretty sure BandC is 170 net typical and 195 net nontypical.
I'm happy to be hunting big whitetails whether they're are more Wiley or not. I lived in western MT for 25 years and a good buck in that valley was 115 to 130. I always say shoot big deer for the area you hunt and be happy.
The oldest deer I've shot in Illinois since I've gotten back also scores the lowest. 130 gross and 122 net. If I see one like that in range this fall an arrow will fly.
Lastly, shooting an old buck with a rifle is more often an exercise in finding him, getting to within 15 yards or less and killing him with a short range weapon is a completely different problem to solve.
All this is relative to the time you have and the challenge you're willing to accept.
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There is a high fence breeder and outfitter down the street from me (not Alabama) I always slow down and stare at the deer and sometimes take pictures. I met the owner and he let me walk in and pet the deer. Not sure why anyone would want to kill a farm raised animal lol. His first breeder buck was a 120” yearling and estimated 220” non typical as a two year old. Now as someone who knows nothing about deer scoring I just nodded my head up and down and said nice lol. The picture below is him cutting the grass and the deer are up at the top just chilling watching him.
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LAKY
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- 471
It's all about habitat, guys and gals. And, in some areas with lesser habitat, a buck must be even older to achieve his best rack. And, they will never produce the best rack they are capable of. A 4.5 YO in farm country is going to be larger than a 4.5 YO in pine plantations that are poorly managed (for wildlife) by timber companies. On top of that, in areas with more cover, with less visibility, a 4.5 YO is much harder to kill just because of the sheer amount of cover and lack of visibility.
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Now let's talk elk in that area...
Why would ya ever move?
I doubt it. But I'm happy to look at whatever you found that says we have comparable abundance of 120+ class whitetails to the midwest. Shouldn't be a long read.
I'm quite familiar with P&Y. You keep bringing that number up and trying to argue that I'm refuting it, which I'm not.
Again, happy to look at your data and adjust my viewpoint if necessary. I'm just basing my threshold on the 4 surrounding states trophy databases and information gained from talking to state biologists. You're basing yours on...
As far as 100" deer being easy to kill, given that I've seen and held plenty of 100" bucks that got aged between 4.5-7.5 years old, I'm confused. I guess bucks antlers develop inside their brains instead of their skulls?
I guess if you're saying that, to you, anything below 125 is not a trophy, ok. I'm sure you've killed lots of them given your geographic location and am happy for you. To me and I think most people, "trophy" is almost synonymous with "mature." If a buck is 4.5yo or older, has hit 90% or more of his growth potential, and has had several seasons under his belt avoiding hunters in order to achieve that, I think he's a trophy. I'm more impressed with somebody in a state like Florida or Vermont who has a dozen 100" 5.5-7.5yo bucks under his belt than somebody in Wisconsin or Illinois with a dozen 3.5yo 120" deer. Kinda the way I'm more impressed with an Ethiopian millionaire's wealth than an American one.
Anyway, I've got 5 emails out to state biologists I'm waiting to hear back from. I'm also working to dig up what the AWR threshold used to be. I'll post that up when I'm done. As it stands, I think a 100" buck would probably cementum age at 4.5 or better in Baldwin County, and in a place like Dallas or Jackson you'd probably need to hit 115 or better to make that age.
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Hall,
I didn't say he could go to your mountains. I agree with you. They are different creatures. and have to be hunted differently. I said he could go to my property. My deer are River bottom deer. Similar to what Nut is used to hunting. Basic woodmanship and effort and a little MRI will get it done. I have friends that come here from back east. They usually walk away w/ a bucfk if they put in the effort and do their part.
So I did find this on an dead thread on the ALDeer forum:
www.aldeer.com
1st post cites 115" as the minimum entry score for a typical bow harvest. Tracks pretty well with the mean average of the surrounding 4 states (117).
Boone & Crockett and Pope & Young Map
Originally Posted By: Matt BrockThe new program, Records of Alabama Whitetail Deer, uses B&C NET score with a minimum entry of 140 typical and 160 non-typical I believe. Weapon doesn't matter. Same entry requirements for all weapons. Not exactly Matt! The following is taken directl...
www.aldeer.com
1st post cites 115" as the minimum entry score for a typical bow harvest. Tracks pretty well with the mean average of the surrounding 4 states (117).
MSbowhunter48
Well-Known Member
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- Oct 15, 2019
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- 272
That map paints a pretty clear picture in my opinion.So I did find this on an dead thread on the ALDeer forum:
Boone & Crockett and Pope & Young Map
Originally Posted By: Matt BrockThe new program, Records of Alabama Whitetail Deer, uses B&C NET score with a minimum entry of 140 typical and 160 non-typical I believe. Weapon doesn't matter. Same entry requirements for all weapons. Not exactly Matt! The following is taken directl...
1st post cites 115" as the minimum entry score for a typical bow harvest. Tracks pretty well with the mean average of the surrounding 4 states (117).
LAKY
Well-Known Member
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- Mar 3, 2019
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Yep. HABITAT
It really does, doesn't it? Here it is for folks who didn't click the link and go back to the OP.
Plenty of hunters are beating themselves up for lack of success and spending lots of time and energy on things that don't matter near as much as "access to quality habitat" in an effort to kill more deer. Scent control...premium clothes...high FOC arrows...saddle gear..."advanced" tactics learned from gurus... The fact of the matter is that everybody living in those white and light yellow counties stands to gain way more by being more choosy about where they spend limited hunting time OR lowering their expectations.
Something to bear in mind is that if you broke the counties down into smaller parcels, you'd see similar discrepancies in where big bucks came from. Some parts of Baldwin County, AL do have substantially better herd health than the surrounding areas. It's mostly private, but a good strategy for somebody who couldn't travel would be to pay some club dues. THEN, once you've narrowed it down that far, realize that most of the deer are gonna spend most of their daylight time congregated in bedding. But too many people start at the end, trying to pick the tree before they look and see if the tract is worth burning effort in.
All of that matters way more than whatever insignificant difference there may be between a "smart" deer and a "dumb" one. You can quite literally increase your odds of harvesting a big buck by 100x just by driving. I'm not aware of anything else that gives you a similar multiplier.
Regularly scheduled reminder to spend a few dollars and 2 hours reading Sheppard's Whitetails.
So below is a cool email I just got from Alabama's State Deer Program Coordinator, Chris Cook.
Nick,
I was forwarded your e-mail message from several of our folks and will try to answer your question.
Based on your e-mail, it appears you are interested in knowing what the average mature buck (5+ years old) will score in various parts of Alabama. While I don’t have a large set of B&C score data from Alabama, we are fortunate to have great data from researchers at Mississippi State University and the Mississippi Department of Wildlife, Fisheries, and Parks that translate nicely to much of Alabama. Five year old and older bucks in the Upper Coastal Plain (UCP) of MS have an average B&C score of 120” (108 for 4.5yo) while 5+ year old bucks in the Lower Coastal Plain (LCP) average 117” (105" for 4.5yo). Since much of Alabama is included in the UCP and LCP, I feel these data are relative. For comparison, average scores from regions of MS with better quality soils, such as the Delta, Upper Thick Loess, Lower Thick Loess, and Interior Flatwoods, were 7-16” higher for 5+ year old bucks than the average in the UCP. The MS data are from deer on public and private properties, so I suspect the averages would be a little lower if only WMA data were included.
We also have decades of antler data from WMAs and DMAP properties located all over Alabama, but the data do not include B&C scores. Average main beam length, average basal circumference, average inside spread, and average number of antler points are almost identical in each of the physiographic regions except the Lower Coastal Plain (LCP). Using that information, the data from MS, and my experience working in Alabama for the last 30 years, I estimate the average score for mature bucks outside of the poorest regions within the LCP would be 120” (108 for 4.5yo) or slightly less. On properties where intensive deer habitat improvement has been implemented and/or better quality soils are present, the average mature buck should be better than 120”. If we are only talking about WMA deer, the average score for 5+ year old bucks will likely be 110-115” ( 99-103 for 4.5yo) in most physiographic regions of Alabama.
Alabama Whitetail Records does appear to be out of business or at least inactive. It doesn’t look like they have not posted anything on Facebook since February.
Each person’s definition of a trophy deer will vary. For some, exceptional antler size (e.g., 140” net typical or 165” net non-typical) defines a deer’s trophy status regardless of age, while others judge a buck only by its age (e.g., 5+ years old). There are plenty of 5+ year old bucks that will never score more than 90” and some 3 year old deer that will be 140” and larger as I am sure you know. That is why I emphasize not getting hung up on antler size to evaluate a buck’s trophy status when discussing deer management with hunters. Age should be the key.
Maybe this helps. Let me know if you have any other questions.
Emphasis is mine, as is text in parentheses. I was super-impressed with the detailed response. Chris used to the my district's biologist and he was always super-cool to talk to. I was hoping to get responses back from each district to see if they felt there were variances but he kinda addresses that. Bear in mind my lease and home county are in the sandiest parts of the LCP and predominately row pines. Also worth noting that Chris is referring to the age threshold as 5.5 vs 4.5. I'm perfectly happy with a 4.5 year old deer and was basing scores on that age. If I am correct in understanding that bucks generally hit 90% of antler development at 4.5 (
https://www.northamericanwhitetail.com/editorial/huntingtactics_naw_maturebuck_200808/263957) then a 100-120" deer aged 4.5 yo or older sounds like a reasonable public land trophy.
But woe is me, because 125" is the arbitrary number. I'll never be a big buck serial killer.
Nick,
I was forwarded your e-mail message from several of our folks and will try to answer your question.
Based on your e-mail, it appears you are interested in knowing what the average mature buck (5+ years old) will score in various parts of Alabama. While I don’t have a large set of B&C score data from Alabama, we are fortunate to have great data from researchers at Mississippi State University and the Mississippi Department of Wildlife, Fisheries, and Parks that translate nicely to much of Alabama. Five year old and older bucks in the Upper Coastal Plain (UCP) of MS have an average B&C score of 120” (108 for 4.5yo) while 5+ year old bucks in the Lower Coastal Plain (LCP) average 117” (105" for 4.5yo). Since much of Alabama is included in the UCP and LCP, I feel these data are relative. For comparison, average scores from regions of MS with better quality soils, such as the Delta, Upper Thick Loess, Lower Thick Loess, and Interior Flatwoods, were 7-16” higher for 5+ year old bucks than the average in the UCP. The MS data are from deer on public and private properties, so I suspect the averages would be a little lower if only WMA data were included.
We also have decades of antler data from WMAs and DMAP properties located all over Alabama, but the data do not include B&C scores. Average main beam length, average basal circumference, average inside spread, and average number of antler points are almost identical in each of the physiographic regions except the Lower Coastal Plain (LCP). Using that information, the data from MS, and my experience working in Alabama for the last 30 years, I estimate the average score for mature bucks outside of the poorest regions within the LCP would be 120” (108 for 4.5yo) or slightly less. On properties where intensive deer habitat improvement has been implemented and/or better quality soils are present, the average mature buck should be better than 120”. If we are only talking about WMA deer, the average score for 5+ year old bucks will likely be 110-115” ( 99-103 for 4.5yo) in most physiographic regions of Alabama.
Alabama Whitetail Records does appear to be out of business or at least inactive. It doesn’t look like they have not posted anything on Facebook since February.
Each person’s definition of a trophy deer will vary. For some, exceptional antler size (e.g., 140” net typical or 165” net non-typical) defines a deer’s trophy status regardless of age, while others judge a buck only by its age (e.g., 5+ years old). There are plenty of 5+ year old bucks that will never score more than 90” and some 3 year old deer that will be 140” and larger as I am sure you know. That is why I emphasize not getting hung up on antler size to evaluate a buck’s trophy status when discussing deer management with hunters. Age should be the key.
Maybe this helps. Let me know if you have any other questions.
Emphasis is mine, as is text in parentheses. I was super-impressed with the detailed response. Chris used to the my district's biologist and he was always super-cool to talk to. I was hoping to get responses back from each district to see if they felt there were variances but he kinda addresses that. Bear in mind my lease and home county are in the sandiest parts of the LCP and predominately row pines. Also worth noting that Chris is referring to the age threshold as 5.5 vs 4.5. I'm perfectly happy with a 4.5 year old deer and was basing scores on that age. If I am correct in understanding that bucks generally hit 90% of antler development at 4.5 (
https://www.northamericanwhitetail.com/editorial/huntingtactics_naw_maturebuck_200808/263957) then a 100-120" deer aged 4.5 yo or older sounds like a reasonable public land trophy.
But woe is me, because 125" is the arbitrary number. I'll never be a big buck serial killer.
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I'm not disputing the fact regional, environmental, genetic factors, etc. play a role in overall antler size.
@Nutterbuster don't you guys have a fairly liberal harvest too? I think I've seen some of the southern states allow a deer a day? This has to have some sort of effect on age class as it relates to antler size.
I see what you're doing here though, taking the pressure off the south and putting it up here in the midwest where all the "big bucks" are.
@Nutterbuster don't you guys have a fairly liberal harvest too? I think I've seen some of the southern states allow a deer a day? This has to have some sort of effect on age class as it relates to antler size.
I see what you're doing here though, taking the pressure off the south and putting it up here in the midwest where all the "big bucks" are.
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