Weighing "Mobile" Tree Climbing Options (A Points Based System)

[gcr0003]

Weighing Climbing Options (A Points Based System)
I've wanted to put some sort of metric to the various climbing methods out there for a long time. The tangent on the pack weight thread regarding spurs and bolts is what spurred this on. It appeared to me that @kyler1945 was under the opinion that spurs and/or bolts moved the "needle" as it were when it comes to climbing but I am not sure what exactly that means, or in what categories it is moving the needle, and at what extent it is moving said needle. I am hoping he will be along to discuss and haggle on points with. I am hoping this will shed some light on the different climbing methods strengths and weaknesses for people that haven't tried some of these methods and help people see the marginal difference in methods

The categories and points are out of 5 and are as follows: weight, bulk, time to climb, safety, cost, noise. Some of these categories are purely factual i.e. weight, cost, bulk (volume); whereas, time to climb, safety, and noise could vary depending on the user's experience. I have experience with all of these climbing methods and they all serve their purpose well. I do think every climbing methods has it's strength and weaknesses; however, I am leaning more towards the general opinion that at the end of the day they average out pretty well, especially if you modify these climbing systems. For example, I find climbing sticks to be noisy; however, you can mitigate noise by taping them and/or purchasing caddy systems to help them not touch on the way up.

These are fast but not hard numbers or information. I through this together as fast as I could and it still took way too long. I would like to discuss the different methods and scores and try to change or solidify scores based on general consensus if possible. Changing the score: If you think a score is inaccurate, please state the climbing method and what you think the score should be and why. If your comment gets lets say 15+ likes for starters (may have to increase/decrease later) I will take that as concurrence from the group and change the score.

There were many assumptions made in this estimate. I will only a few here.
Assumptions

• Safety score based on general method for being affixed to the tree, i.e. linemans vs. tether, risk of being stuck, risk of falling, risk of falling and getting hooked etc.
• Noise based on out of the box configurations, no adjustment for tape, parachord, or other silencing methods
• Climbing speed of sticks based on 4 sticks, quick connect for premium sticks, standard cam for regular sticks
• Climbing Time for all methods includes includes unpack and pack
• Spurs and bolts not penalized for public land legality or damage to tree
• Ease of use not factored in, all climbing methods are considered reasonably doable by an able bodied person of moderate health, strength, and common sense
• Cost of items based on avg or standard cost from quick google searches, premium options such as aiders, cam cleats, tape, etc. not captured
• DISCLAIMER: safety rating does not suggest or imply that the climbing methods are SAFE, climbing is inherently unsafe and should only be done by trained professionals
• Rope climbing time includes time to use throw ball and set up method. Does not account for a preset.

This is just a starting points, so let's see where this goes! This is not an extensive list of climbing methods. It only includes the ones I see as the most popular common.

NOTE: As you pick what is important to you i.e. weight over bulk, or cost over time etc. you should see the score better align with the climbing method that best fits your situation.

 

[kyler1945]

I often say that all climbing methods are about the same when you consider all aspects of using them - price, effort to research, effort to practice, storing them, packing them to hunt, carrying them to hunt, unpacking them to climb, climbing up, climbing down, packing them to leave, carrying them out. In terms of time/money/effort/suffering, they're all about the same.

I think bolts and spurs move the needle, I’ll expand on that later I can’t do it tonight.

I would stay away from including safety in this assessment. You and I are not qualified to offer advice or definitive statements on the topic. And the leverage the internet provides is scary. People will get hurt and die due to this type of behavior. It’s already happened.

I’ll stick around and provide input otherwise. Fun topic.

 

[Plebe]

Weighing Climbing Options (A Points Based System)
I've wanted to put some sort of metric to the various climbing methods out there for a long time. The tangent on the pack weight thread regarding spurs and bolts is what spurred this on. It appeared to me that @kyler1945 was under the opinion that spurs and/or bolts moved the "needle" as it were when it comes to climbing but I am not sure what exactly that means, or in what categories it is moving the needle, and at what extent it is moving said needle. I am hoping he will be along to discuss and haggle on points with. I am hoping this will shed some light on the different climbing methods strengths and weaknesses for people that haven't tried some of these methods and help people see the marginal difference in methods

The categories and points are out of 5 and are as follows: weight, bulk, time to climb, safety, cost, noise. Some of these categories are purely factual i.e. weight, cost, bulk (volume); whereas, time to climb, safety, and noise could vary depending on the user's experience. I have experience with all of these climbing methods and they all serve their purpose well. I do think every climbing methods has it's strength and weaknesses; however, I am leaning more towards the general opinion that at the end of the day they average out pretty well, especially if you modify these climbing systems. For example, I find climbing sticks to be noisy; however, you can mitigate noise by taping them and/or purchasing caddy systems to help them not touch on the way up.

These are fast but not hard numbers or information. I through this together as fast as I could and it still took way too long. I would like to discuss the different methods and scores and try to change or solidify scores based on general consensus if possible. Changing the score: If you think a score is inaccurate, please state the climbing method and what you think the score should be and why. If your comment gets lets say 15+ likes for starters (may have to increase/decrease later) I will take that as concurrence from the group and change the score.

There were many assumptions made in this estimate. I will only a few here.
Assumptions

• Safety score based on general method for being affixed to the tree, i.e. linemans vs. tether, risk of being stuck, risk of falling, risk of falling and getting hooked etc.
• Noise based on out of the box configurations, no adjustment for tape, parachord, or other silencing methods
• Climbing speed of sticks based on 4 sticks, quick connect for premium sticks, standard cam for regular sticks
• Climbing Time for all methods includes includes unpack and pack
• Spurs and bolts not penalized for public land legality or damage to tree
• Ease of use not factored in, all climbing methods are considered reasonably doable by an able bodied person of moderate health, strength, and common sense
• Cost of items based on avg or standard cost from quick google searches, premium options such as aiders, cam cleats, tape, etc. not captured

View attachment 91012

This is just a starting points, so let's see where this goes! This is not an extensive list of climbing methods. It only includes the ones I see as the most popular common.

NOTE: As you pick what is important to you i.e. weight over bulk, or cost over time etc. you should see the score better align with the climbing method that best fits your situation.

I think rope climbing is faster than you credit, given presets. Frankly, it outperforms sticks for speed unless you got to throw the ball. Idk. Maybe I'm wrong.

 

[kyler1945]

I think rope climbing is faster than you credit, given presets. Frankly, it outperforms sticks for speed unless you got to throw the ball. Idk. Maybe I'm wrong.

I usually preface my thoughts on this with “when hunting mobile - like hunting fresh trees, like no presets”. Then the differences largely wash out.

If the “preset” is held constant, I have far more efficient ways to kill deer than climb a rope. I’d prioritize spots I don’t even have to climb a tree.

But the premise is that you’re walking out into the woods to go find a place to hunt, and you don’t know what kind of woods they are. In that context, they’re all about the same.

 

[Plebe]

I often say that all climbing methods are about the same when you consider all aspects of using them - price, effort to research, effort to practice, storing them, packing them to hunt, carrying them to hunt, unpacking them to climb, climbing up, climbing down, packing them to leave, carrying them out. In terms of time/money/effort/suffering, they're all about the same.

I think bolts and spurs move the needle, I’ll expand on that later I can’t do it tonight.

I would stay away from including safety in this assessment. You and I are not qualified to offer advice or definitive statements on the topic. And the leverage the internet provides is scary. People will get hurt and die due to this type of behavior. It’s already happened.

I’ll stick around and provide input otherwise. Fun topic.

The cumulative score is the least meaningful of all measurements (to me).

 

[kyler1945]

The cumulative score is the least meaningful of all measurements (to me).

It leaves out an important factor - hunter variability.

My thought that spurs and bolts cut across hunter variability comes from serious time spent thinking about it, talking about it, and playing with climbing methods. But it is very much an opinion.

Hunter variability is as important as each individual factor above. Sometimes I feel like what I’m really saying when I say they’re all the same, is that we’re all different so there’s no point in talking about it!

 

[Plebe]

I usually preface my thoughts on this with “when hunting mobile - like hunting fresh trees, like no presets”. Then the differences largely wash out.

If the “preset” is held constant, I have far more efficient ways to kill deer than climb a rope. I’d prioritize spots I don’t even have to climb a tree.

But the premise is that you’re walking out into the woods to go find a place to hunt, and you don’t know what kind of woods they are. In that context, they’re all about the same.

Well, bolts and spurs are illegal in woods I've walked "blindly" into. So there is that difference.

 

[kyler1945]

Well, bolts and spurs are illegal in woods I've walked "blindly" into. So there is that difference.

It certainly limits their applicability

 

[Plebe]

It leaves out an important factor - hunter variability.

My thought that spurs and bolts cut across hunter variability comes from serious time spent thinking about it, talking about it, and playing with climbing methods. But it is very much an opinion.

Hunter variability is as important as each individual factor above. Sometimes I feel like what I’m really saying when I say they’re all the same, is that we’re all different so there’s no point in talking about it!

A bigger problem for evaluation, imo, is tree variation.

As a hunter, if all evaluations are "correct", I can prioritize factors important to me based on a scorecard.

For example, I only have $100 for my climbing method. Two methods meet that criteria. One is legal one is not. Done. That's my option. If another factor of that method isn't acceptable, I don't hunt elevated. Done.

 

[Plebe]

I'm off grid and satellite connectivity is spotty at best. I need to be as "safe" a saddlehunter as possible. Ropes are 5/5 (were it that easy). Ok, that's helpful, I'll focus my time, money, and effort there and see what shakes out.

 

[gcr0003]

I think rope climbing is faster than you credit, given presets. Frankly, it outperforms sticks for speed unless you got to throw the ball. Idk. Maybe I'm wrong.

I’ll add to the assumptions that the time for rope climbing includes taking out a throw ball and throwing it over a limb, and setting up the system, packing away throw ball, pulling up rope at top of the tree etc.

Having presets would decrease set up time for rope climbing and therefore making it a lot faster as you say. It’s not a part of this metric though. Purely climbing I can climb srt to 20 ft in about 2 minutes once rope is set up.

 

[gcr0003]

I'm off grid and satellite connectivity is spotty at best. I need to be as "safe" a saddlehunter as possible. Ropes are 5/5 (were it that easy). Ok, that's helpful, I'll focus my time, money, and effort there and see what shakes out.

Obviously there are many more factors than we can capture in a short table so I would try to give it plenty of slack where you can. The table was made with many assumptions and is open to being altered for the fun/sake of the topic, but let’s not be so rigid that we treat this as canon or something more than it is. At best I think it can be a good high level overview of the climbing methods and some of their attributes. As vague as it is, if you expect more from it, you’ll only be frustrated.

 

[HuskerInIowa]

My opinion is that most of your metrics, while well thought out, are subjective. Time will be better with practice with any method but I can ascend just as quickly with my cheap sticks as I can with my OneSticks.
In the same vein I don’t think it’s fair to categorize mid priced sticks as less safe, user error is a bigger issue for kickouts, etc than the idea that a mid priced stick is poorly built.
Noise score also doesn’t make sense to me. Deer hate the sound of aluminum Hawk sticks more than titanium Tethred sticks? If you don’t wrap them either one is a sound you don’t hear in the woods from animals.
Cost factor seems overweighted. We all spend too much on darn near everything. I can find countless posts saying “if it makes you safer do it or buy it!” but maybe I’m just saying that as a proud member of the saddle hunters support thread.
I like the idea of this, just my two cents that’s worth about 2 cents less than than that.

 

[Plebe]

I’ll add to the assumptions that the time for rope climbing includes taking out a throw ball and throwing it over a limb, and setting up the system, packing away throw ball, pulling up rope at top of the tree etc.

Having presets would decrease set up time for rope climbing and therefore making it a lot faster as you say. It’s not a part of this metric though. Purely climbing I can climb srt to 20 ft in about 2 minutes once rope is set up.

It's an important distinction, imo. Many hunters aren't striking out into the woods blindly. Perhaps it's not a stretch that even most aren't.

Climbing 20ft in 2min is possible when there's a preset. How long would that take with an ultra-premium set of sticks? I suppose you could preset those too (if legal), but I've yet to come across a set of preset Tethrd ONE sticks, lol, let alone a set of el cheapos.

I'm personally good with no paracord left in public trees, but maybe some private land hunters like their rope climbing presets.

Idk, it's a tale of two cities.

 

[gcr0003]

My opinion is that most of your metrics, while well thought out, are subjective. Time will be better with practice with any method but I can ascend just as quickly with my cheap sticks as I can with my OneSticks.
In the same vein I don’t think it’s fair to categorize mid priced sticks as less safe, user error is a bigger issue for kickouts, etc than the idea that a mid priced stick is poorly built.
Noise score also doesn’t make sense to me. Deer hate the sound of aluminum Hawk sticks more than titanium Tethred sticks? If you don’t wrap them either one is a sound you don’t hear in the woods from animals.
Cost factor seems overweighted. We all spend too much on darn near everything. I can find countless posts saying “if it makes you safer do it or buy it!” but maybe I’m just saying that as a proud member of the saddle hunters support thread.
I like the idea of this, just my two cents that’s worth about 2 cents less than than that.

1. Yea we know that things that we can’t measured or measured well are typically subjective, I stated that noise, time, and safety are very subjective.
2. stickswere both given 3/5 based on the assumption that they are climbed with only a lineman’s belt so if there was fall there isn’t anything arresting the user. You also have the risk of falling and getting caught on stick. This isn’t sticks are unsafe, just scoring them based on some inherent risks. There are now two assumptions on the list regarding the safety column which will likely go away because it’s too problematic.
3. I’d be good with changing noise of sticks both to 2/5 based on them both being metal and susceptible to dinging and making metallic noises out of the box
4. For those that think cost isn’t a factor I totaled the columns less the cost category as you can see in the last column. If you take out that factor you see that the overall scores are even closer across the board.

 

[gcr0003]

tree hopper steps with the daisy chain truckers hitch method

I think crushes it in every category except it is slower to climb

Steps are an another common and solid climbing method that should be on the list. I’ll add later.
Weight 4lbs if that ? 4/5
cost 4/5 less than $100 right?
Noise 4/5 or 5/5?
Safety 4/5 ? lineman’s but less to get hooked on in the event of a fall
Bulk 4/5? Packs down well
Time 10 or 15 mins? 2/5?

 

[Plebe]

My opinion is that most of your metrics, while well thought out, are subjective. Time will be better with practice with any method but I can ascend just as quickly with my cheap sticks as I can with my OneSticks.
In the same vein I don’t think it’s fair to categorize mid priced sticks as less safe, user error is a bigger issue for kickouts, etc than the idea that a mid priced stick is poorly built.
Noise score also doesn’t make sense to me. Deer hate the sound of aluminum Hawk sticks more than titanium Tethred sticks? If you don’t wrap them either one is a sound you don’t hear in the woods from animals.
Cost factor seems overweighted. We all spend too much on darn near everything. I can find countless posts saying “if it makes you safer do it or buy it!” but maybe I’m just saying that as a proud member of the saddle hunters support thread.
I like the idea of this, just my two cents that’s worth about 2 cents less than than that.

Agree that sticks are hard to collectively generalize. So much variation there.

 

[raisins]

Steps are an another common and solid climbing method that should be on the list. I’ll add later.
Weight 4lbs if that ? 4/5
cost 4/5 less than $100 right?
Noise 4/5 or 5/5?
Safety 4/5 ? lineman’s but less to get hooked on in the event of a fall
Bulk 4/5? Packs down well
Time 10 or 15 mins? 2/5?

Weight is around 4.5 lbs total (with stuff sacks etc)

Cost is around $200 if you make your own daisy chains

Noise is 5 out of 5 if plastic step (I barely make noise on shag bark even just a little crunchies)

Safety 4 or 5 out of 5 (if you use lineman’s and tether together) because of 2 points of independent contact and kick outs are impossible as is being impaled and you only advance 1 step at a time (minimal slack) oh and going around branches is a breeze

bulk is about size of 2 loaves of bread (score?)

time is a 1 or 2 out of 5 (I’ve had 30 minute climb times of tired/dark/weird tree)

another bad point is that to climb effectively you need your daisy chains wrangled properly, I guess this would be time or convenience

if you climb down and just stuff the chains in your sacks, then if you climb again (without taking 5 or 10 minutes to fix them) then everything is a tangled mess

several times I’ve wanted to move mid day but didn’t because I knew I’d either have a tangle or have to sit in the woods and do the prep work I usually do the night before

 

[slonstdy]

Hey bubba, why are you handicapping the one stick?
You are talking climbing methods right? You shouln't imply they have or need a small platform. You are misleading newbies. I don't use one on mine. Tried it and didn't like the added weight or bulk. My 12" stick is under 2lbs.
Cost should be sub $100 too, even more so if you already own climbing sticks. A liitle DIY and you've got yourself a onestick on the cheap.
You 2TC guys always tryin to undermine the king OG onestick!

 

[gcr0003]

Hey bubba, why are you handicapping the one stick?
You are talking climbing methods right? You shouln't imply they have or need a small platform. You are misleading newbies. I don't use one on mine. Tried it and didn't like the added weight or bulk. My 12" stick is under 2lbs.
Cost should be sub $100 too, even more so if you already own climbing sticks. A liitle DIY and you've got yourself a onestick on the cheap.
You 2TC guys always tryin to undermine the king OG onestick!

The small platform mention was only to say that it wasn’t very expensive or heavy build. Since one sticks get crazy expensive now days with the stuff you can add I wanted it to just be basic. That said i didn’t consider it handicapped however it is fair to only look at a one stick no platform like you said which would make the weight 5/5 and cost 4/5. For the record one sticking is still a top favorite of mine and personally considered to me as one of the best overall methods.