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Weighing "Mobile" Tree Climbing Options (A Points Based System)

Wild Edge steps might need to be added. I have used them, but not enough to give all the stats.

With climbing sticks, I think there are many other variables that come into play, that the 2 categories that you have are not covering.

- Stick length - With all sticks, you are bound to a fixed hunting height (minus individual person's comfortable stride). Without aiders, assuming a 20 inch comfortable stride between sticks:
- 4 One sticks - 148 inches or 12.33 feet
- 4 Hawk or orig LW full length - 208 inches or 17.33 feet
- 4 Beast orig length - 176 inches or 14.66 feet
- 4 Shikar or LW mini - 136 inches or 11.33 feet

If you only wanted to get to 11.33 feet to hunt, that is one move on a one stick with a 3 step aider or maybe 2 moves with 2TC. This then changes the time and noise to climb for those.

Maybe there needs to be a "to get to xx feet" parameter so that it is all comparable. If you set that to 20 feet, you would need 6 or 7 One sticks and that would alter the price and time to climb for those.
 
Personally, I think it's a waste of time to argue over. FWIW, I'm not throwing balls in trees or carrying 40' of freakin rope to hunt a deer.

Give me a set of sticks, bolts or WE steps and call it good.

Seems like more guys get their rocks off on gear, method, and semantics than hunting. Maybe that's why so many people say they suck at it.
 
Time, noise and safety could be bumped up a little on that chart for bolts. The climb down should come into consideration if we're talking about climbing methods. Safety wise, points of contact rules are there when it comes to bolts. And, if some of those methods could get 5/5 for certain categories, bolts should get 5/5 for noise, assuming you're using each of these methods proficiently.
 
Personally, I think it's a waste of time to argue over. FWIW, I'm not throwing balls in trees or carrying 40' of freakin rope to hunt a deer.

Give me a set of sticks, bolts or WE steps and call it good.

Seems like more guys get their rocks off on gear, method, and semantics than hunting. Maybe that's why so many people say they suck at it.
Why you gotta call me out like that??? :tearsofjoy:
Pre set on private- DRT. Simple, quiet. I got 80' of rope for the higher sets, two biners and a hitch cord. But not walking far. I am a noisy climbers when it comes to sticks but its easy. But throw balls in the dark, and high vegetation is a pain. Wouldn't do it trying to set up in a new spot.
 
Personally, I think it's a waste of time to argue over. FWIW, I'm not throwing balls in trees or carrying 40' of freakin rope to hunt a deer.

Give me a set of sticks, bolts or WE steps and call it good.

Seems like more guys get their rocks off on gear, method, and semantics than hunting. Maybe that's why so many people say they suck at it.

We argued over 1/4 amsteel and 5/16 amsteel.......because we can! Don't make me go spend time with my family!

But anyway, I think there is also the DIY variable that need to be consider too. I one stick with a Klemz platform that weight less than 3lbs. It doesn't have any adjustability but is easy to use.

There is also the climbing platform method that seem to lose it popularity lately but might be coming back with the rumor LWCG climbing stand.

I agree, the hunting height play a big role in this. If I was thinking of only going 10-12 feet. I would simply bring an extra stick with aider along with my one stick.
 
Weighing Climbing Options (A Points Based System)
I've wanted to put some sort of metric to the various climbing methods out there for a long time. The tangent on the pack weight thread regarding spurs and bolts is what spurred this on. It appeared to me that @kyler1945 was under the opinion that spurs and/or bolts moved the "needle" as it were when it comes to climbing but I am not sure what exactly that means, or in what categories it is moving the needle, and at what extent it is moving said needle. I am hoping he will be along to discuss and haggle on points with. I am hoping this will shed some light on the different climbing methods strengths and weaknesses for people that haven't tried some of these methods and help people see the marginal difference in methods

The categories and points are out of 5 and are as follows: weight, bulk, time to climb, safety, cost, noise. Some of these categories are purely factual i.e. weight, cost, bulk (volume); whereas, time to climb, safety, and noise could vary depending on the user's experience. I have experience with all of these climbing methods and they all serve their purpose well. I do think every climbing methods has it's strength and weaknesses; however, I am leaning more towards the general opinion that at the end of the day they average out pretty well, especially if you modify these climbing systems. For example, I find climbing sticks to be noisy; however, you can mitigate noise by taping them and/or purchasing caddy systems to help them not touch on the way up.

These are fast but not hard numbers or information. I through this together as fast as I could and it still took way too long. I would like to discuss the different methods and scores and try to change or solidify scores based on general consensus if possible. Changing the score: If you think a score is inaccurate, please state the climbing method and what you think the score should be and why. If your comment gets lets say 15+ likes for starters (may have to increase/decrease later) I will take that as concurrence from the group and change the score.

There were many assumptions made in this estimate. I will only a few here.
Assumptions
  • Safety score based on general method for being affixed to the tree, i.e. linemans vs. tether, risk of being stuck, risk of falling, risk of falling and getting hooked etc.
  • Noise based on out of the box configurations, no adjustment for tape, parachord, or other silencing methods
  • Climbing speed of sticks based on 4 sticks, quick connect for premium sticks, standard cam for regular sticks
  • Climbing Time for all methods includes includes unpack and pack
  • Spurs and bolts not penalized for public land legality or damage to tree
  • Ease of use not factored in, all climbing methods are considered reasonably doable by an able bodied person of moderate health, strength, and common sense
  • Cost of items based on avg or standard cost from quick google searches, premium options such as aiders, cam cleats, tape, etc. not captured
  • DISCLAIMER: safety rating does not suggest or imply that the climbing methods are SAFE, climbing is inherently unsafe and should only be done by trained professionals
  • Rope climbing time includes time to use throw ball and set up method. Does not account for a preset.
View attachment 91012

This is just a starting points, so let's see where this goes! This is not an extensive list of climbing methods. It only includes the ones I see as the most popular common.

NOTE: As you pick what is important to you i.e. weight over bulk, or cost over time etc. you should see the score better align with the climbing method that best fits your situation.

Wow thx for taking the time to put that together. Ive used 4 of those 7 climbing methods over the years and I think your assessment is really spot on. This is an excellent starting spot for folks who are just getting into this.
 
Sorry my thoughts are disjointed. Babies.

Bolt analysis. I’ll leave aside bolts/aider for now. And titanium.

Weight/packability.

15 Normal grade 8 bolts, and the mini folding drill, is 3.5lbs. From weight/packability standpoint, I don’t see how they don’t get a 5/5. If comparing to 2tc, fine make that 5/5, and bolts 4.8 on weight. Packability the same. You could conflate packability with deployment, but i'll separate below.

Time

Once you’ve drilled a hole in a hardwood a few times to practice, it’s pretty hard to take longer than a minute to drill, set bolt, advance linemans and step up. So for purely climbing time - if you're short, and go slow to avoid noise/sweating, and want to get to 20', you're talking 15-18 minutes. ON THE WAY UP. Climbing down, using proper technique, maintaining 3 points of contact at all times, I can't say I've ever taken longer than 1.5-2 minutes to reach the ground. Most climbs it is about a minute. Prepping to climb - wrap linemans around tree and start climbing- 0 minutes. Time to pack up and leave - shove bolts in pouch or pocket and walk away - 0 minutes. It's the TOTAL time of researching, purchasing, learning, storing at home, packing to head to the woods, carrying the stuff to the tree, deploying it to climb, climbing up, climbing down, packing up to leave, that bolts shine. But narrowing to just deploying to climb, climbing up and down, packing the method to leave, it's 22 minutes tops. I'm confident that this number is tops for everything except 2tc. And it still may be faster, I just haven't explored this climbing method in depth.

Safety

Again, I think we should avoid detail on this metric, because it will get people hurt and killed. But I would point to the anecdote i posited in the other thread you had going: How many people have we heard of recently climbing with a lineman's belt that were seriously (life altering long term impact) injured, or died? How many have we heard of that were seriously injured or died while tethered in? I'm not saying this to say climbing with a lineman's is safer. I'm saying that the math folks are doing to say that being tethered in is safe, is very likely quite wrong. For this reason I think you should leave this metric out. I'm bullish on this front - people will get hurt. When you decide to leave the ground, you take the largest increase in risk on board. Within the options we are all discussing, your odds of being seriously injured or dying do not change dramatically between methods. They all bring on HUGE INHERENT RISK. You (the collective you - all of us) are undervaluing this risk. Saying otherwise, unless you are qualified to assess risk, with specific regard to working at height, is not the right thing to do.

Cost

25 bolts and a mini folding handle drill is 120.00 max.

Noise

Bolts are hands down the quitest method to climb, and it's not close. Drilling is silent, setting a bolt is silent, stepping on a bolt is silent, removing a bolt is silent. packing and unpacking bolts is silent. If any of these are untrue, you're just doing it wrong. I see nothing gets a 5/5 here, but I can't see how any other method ties with bolts, because you are in so much control of the only source of noise - advancing your lineman's belt. I would put sticks here, if they're stealth stripped completely, you go slow, they never touch each other when deploying, and you don't drag the rope or strap across bark while tightening. But those are all big ifs. Again, rope climbing, and 2tc could be quiet, but technique AND execution matter. Bolts, all that matters is technique. If you do it right, it's quiet. Even if you aren't good at it.


Now let's add a couple categories:

Learning curve

If you can stir oatmeal, and you can plug in a phone charger, you can drill and install a bolt. If you can maintain minimum of 3 points of contact at all times, you can climb using bolts. I would imagine sticks and strap on steps are on par here. Big drop to other methods including stepps because of the knot, rope climbing because you should be taking classes taught by qualified people before doing it and purchasing equipment, 2tc seems to have a very steep curve, but admittedly ignorant to it. 5/5 for bolts and sticks.

Deployment/packup

walk up to tree, start climbing with bolts. Come down tree, shove in pocket or pouch and leave. No ropes or cords or straps to drag against bark, brush on ground, leaves, etc. Bolts are easily 5/5 and well above any other method for deployment time/effort/noise, and packing up. A lot of how much this matters is relative to how cold it is though - if you have to spend 10 minutes getting dressed and undressed to walk, packing up for 2-3 minutes isn't as big of a deal. But it is objectively easier and faster with bolts than anything else. Including 2tc because you don't have to get stuff wrapped around the tree, and adjusted.

Impact of age/weight/flexibility/dexterity/balance/motor skills/spatial reasoning and awareness

I would imagine bolts win here, but sticks and strap on steps could also tie. I think it depends on methods of deployment, size of tree, temperature, etc. Where it does not for bolts. Again - this could be conflated with learning curve. But I do think they are separate issues. You can learn all the techniques and methods with rope climbing and 2tc, and if you're not the appropriate combination of things above, you could be reliably bad at it. I'm confident in almost anyone 10 years or older to be able to master the technique of installing and climbing on bolts. I'm not advocating it, just highlighting the disparity in physical/mental tools required to use a method effectively.


Maintenance/Storage of the climbing method everywhere but the woods

This one is often overlooked or undervalued. But where you store things at home. Where or how you store them in your truck, on your atv, bicycle, etc on the way to and from the deer woods. Cleaning them. Checking them for signs of wear. Bolts are clear winner here to me. The only maintenance MIGHT be to put lubricant in the drill joint once a season if you care about it squeaking sometimes. And replacing or sharpening the bit. This can be moved to the cost category, and bolts can be 200.00 for lifetime instead of 120.





I'm sure I have more thoughts, but that's enough to get the ball rolling.
 
@kyler1945 you should probably just get some bolts tattooed on your calf, it'd save you a lot of typing and make your love of bolts obvious to all :sweatsmile:

I went one step further. I have them surgically implanted into my feet. Now I just drill, and insert my foot bolt into the hole and climb. Fast as lightning and no bolts to carry.

It has made boot leaks an issue, and the wife really doesn’t care to sleep in the same bed.

But these are tradeoffs. Like every other climbing method haha!
 
Sorry my thoughts are disjointed. Babies.

Bolt analysis. I’ll leave aside bolts/aider for now. And titanium.

Weight/packability.

15 Normal grade 8 bolts, and the mini folding drill, is 3.5lbs. From weight/packability standpoint, I don’t see how they don’t get a 5/5. If comparing to 2tc, fine make that 5/5, and bolts 4.8 on weight. Packability the same. You could conflate packability with deployment, but i'll separate below.

Time

Once you’ve drilled a hole in a hardwood a few times to practice, it’s pretty hard to take longer than a minute to drill, set bolt, advance linemans and step up. So for purely climbing time - if you're short, and go slow to avoid noise/sweating, and want to get to 20', you're talking 15-18 minutes. ON THE WAY UP. Climbing down, using proper technique, maintaining 3 points of contact at all times, I can't say I've ever taken longer than 1.5-2 minutes to reach the ground. Most climbs it is about a minute. Prepping to climb - wrap linemans around tree and start climbing- 0 minutes. Time to pack up and leave - shove bolts in pouch or pocket and walk away - 0 minutes. It's the TOTAL time of researching, purchasing, learning, storing at home, packing to head to the woods, carrying the stuff to the tree, deploying it to climb, climbing up, climbing down, packing up to leave, that bolts shine. But narrowing to just deploying to climb, climbing up and down, packing the method to leave, it's 22 minutes tops. I'm confident that this number is tops for everything except 2tc. And it still may be faster, I just haven't explored this climbing method in depth.

Safety

Again, I think we should avoid detail on this metric, because it will get people hurt and killed. But I would point to the anecdote i posited in the other thread you had going: How many people have we heard of recently climbing with a lineman's belt that were seriously (life altering long term impact) injured, or died? How many have we heard of that were seriously injured or died while tethered in? I'm not saying this to say climbing with a lineman's is safer. I'm saying that the math folks are doing to say that being tethered in is safe, is very likely quite wrong. For this reason I think you should leave this metric out. I'm bullish on this front - people will get hurt. When you decide to leave the ground, you take the largest increase in risk on board. Within the options we are all discussing, your odds of being seriously injured or dying do not change dramatically between methods. They all bring on HUGE INHERENT RISK. You (the collective you - all of us) are undervaluing this risk. Saying otherwise, unless you are qualified to assess risk, with specific regard to working at height, is not the right thing to do.

Cost

25 bolts and a mini folding handle drill is 120.00 max.

Noise

Bolts are hands down the quitest method to climb, and it's not close. Drilling is silent, setting a bolt is silent, stepping on a bolt is silent, removing a bolt is silent. packing and unpacking bolts is silent. If any of these are untrue, you're just doing it wrong. I see nothing gets a 5/5 here, but I can't see how any other method ties with bolts, because you are in so much control of the only source of noise - advancing your lineman's belt. I would put sticks here, if they're stealth stripped completely, you go slow, they never touch each other when deploying, and you don't drag the rope or strap across bark while tightening. But those are all big ifs. Again, rope climbing, and 2tc could be quiet, but technique AND execution matter. Bolts, all that matters is technique. If you do it right, it's quiet. Even if you aren't good at it.


Now let's add a couple categories:

Learning curve

If you can stir oatmeal, and you can plug in a phone charger, you can drill and install a bolt. If you can maintain minimum of 3 points of contact at all times, you can climb using bolts. I would imagine sticks and strap on steps are on par here. Big drop to other methods including stepps because of the knot, rope climbing because you should be taking classes taught by qualified people before doing it and purchasing equipment, 2tc seems to have a very steep curve, but admittedly ignorant to it. 5/5 for bolts and sticks.

Deployment/packup

walk up to tree, start climbing with bolts. Come down tree, shove in pocket or pouch and leave. No ropes or cords or straps to drag against bark, brush on ground, leaves, etc. Bolts are easily 5/5 and well above any other method for deployment time/effort/noise, and packing up. A lot of how much this matters is relative to how cold it is though - if you have to spend 10 minutes getting dressed and undressed to walk, packing up for 2-3 minutes isn't as big of a deal. But it is objectively easier and faster with bolts than anything else. Including 2tc because you don't have to get stuff wrapped around the tree, and adjusted.

Impact of age/weight/flexibility/dexterity/balance/motor skills/spatial reasoning and awareness

I would imagine bolts win here, but sticks and strap on steps could also tie. I think it depends on methods of deployment, size of tree, temperature, etc. Where it does not for bolts. Again - this could be conflated with learning curve. But I do think they are separate issues. You can learn all the techniques and methods with rope climbing and 2tc, and if you're not the appropriate combination of things above, you could be reliably bad at it. I'm confident in almost anyone 10 years or older to be able to master the technique of installing and climbing on bolts. I'm not advocating it, just highlighting the disparity in physical/mental tools required to use a method effectively.


Maintenance/Storage of the climbing method everywhere but the woods

This one is often overlooked or undervalued. But where you store things at home. Where or how you store them in your truck, on your atv, bicycle, etc on the way to and from the deer woods. Cleaning them. Checking them for signs of wear. Bolts are clear winner here to me. The only maintenance MIGHT be to put lubricant in the drill joint once a season if you care about it squeaking sometimes. And replacing or sharpening the bit. This can be moved to the cost category, and bolts can be 200.00 for lifetime instead of 120.





I'm sure I have more thoughts, but that's enough to get the ball rolling.
I agree. You said a lot of what I said above in a much more detailed, thought out way. Bolts should be close to 5/5 on most of those metrics in the chart. So, you may have to pay a fee to use them where you hunt. You probably won't, but it's just a choice.
 
I went one step further. I have them surgically implanted into my feet. Now I just drill, and insert my foot bolt into the hole and climb. Fast as lightning and no bolts to carry.

It has made boot leaks an issue, and the wife really doesn’t care to sleep in the same bed.

But these are tradeoffs. Like every other climbing method haha!

You must be the mastermind behind the newest JX3 seat cushion then.

8D430DE8-1433-48A5-B7BD-C85A74E09912.jpeg
 
I used bolts for quite a few years on private land. I did not like them for run and gun hunts, where I had to drill the tree with the hand drill on the way up for a hunt. I absolutely loved them for presets with a cordless drill. Here in Mississippi, in early season when it was 80 degrees at 6:00 AM I would be a sore, sweaty mess by the time I drilled and installed 12 bolts. One thing about the bolts too is that, for me, drilling the left hand bolt was always harder than drilling the right. Some trees would be easy to drill, and some trees would be more fibrous, and the hole would not be clean, and the bit would be hard to get out. After about the first week of drilling every day, my elbow would be very sore. The doc called it tennis elbow, but I called it bolt elbow. Anyway, it wasn't something I could do for long stretches without consequences.

I only have a couple of pieces of private now and I have a few spots preset with bolts on them. They are rut funnel or primary scrape spots and they are set up and all I have to do is go in, climb and hunt. That part is nice. I hunt mostly public ground now, and they are strictly forbidden out there. Even if they were not illegal to use, I would prefer 2TC over any other method I have tried so far. That is just me.
 
@kyler1945 I am going to somewhat disagree with your comments about discussing safety. I get your points and think they are valid but I dont think we should avoid the subject. To the best of my recollection, by far the highest number of fall related injuries is when people are transitioning from climbing sticks or ladders onto or off of a stand and are not connected to the tree in any fashion. That doesnt count the number of falls that are not reported because folks werent hurt bad enough to need medical attention. I dont think it is unsafe to say publicly hunters can reduce their risk of serious injury or death if they climb tethered to the tree. But that conversation definitely needs to include discussion about fall factors and safe climbing practices. As it relates to relying on people certified in climbing or working at height giving instruction for our application, the ones I have asked specifically about that refused to discuss or offer training because their certifications did not relate to the activity we are engaged in. That pretty much leaves us to as hunters to police or guide our own. Obviously that is not a great situation as evidenced by the number of youtube videos out there showing horrible technique and unsafe methods even though they are using "safety" gear. Not sure what the best answer is but avoiding the conversation doesnt seem to me to be the best course.
 
Personally, I think it's a waste of time to argue over. FWIW, I'm not throwing balls in trees or carrying 40' of freakin rope to hunt a deer.

Give me a set of sticks, bolts or WE steps and call it good.

Seems like more guys get their rocks off on gear, method, and semantics than hunting. Maybe that's why so many people say they suck at it.

it’s amazing

I can do all sorts of things

even last night, I cooked dinner and read a book after

I suppose then I can manage to be into gear and also able to hunt, since I have an iq over room temp

this argumentof yours is made by people that think black and white or like to hunt and don’t like gear and can’t imagine others are different than themselves
 
Personally, I think it's a waste of time to argue over. FWIW, I'm not throwing balls in trees or carrying 40' of freakin rope to hunt a deer.

Give me a set of sticks, bolts or WE steps and call it good.

Seems like more guys get their rocks off on gear, method, and semantics than hunting. Maybe that's why so many people say they suck at it.

By that logic you should be hunting on the ground. That is, if you don't suck at it.
 
@kyler1945 I am going to somewhat disagree with your comments about discussing safety. I get your points and think they are valid but I dont think we should avoid the subject. To the best of my recollection, by far the highest number of fall related injuries is when people are transitioning from climbing sticks or ladders onto or off of a stand and are not connected to the tree in any fashion. That doesnt count the number of falls that are not reported because folks werent hurt bad enough to need medical attention. I dont think it is unsafe to say publicly hunters can reduce their risk of serious injury or death if they climb tethered to the tree. But that conversation definitely needs to include discussion about fall factors and safe climbing practices. As it relates to relying on people certified in climbing or working at height giving instruction for our application, the ones I have asked specifically about that refused to discuss or offer training because their certifications did not relate to the activity we are engaged in. That pretty much leaves us to as hunters to police or guide our own. Obviously that is not a great situation as evidenced by the number of youtube videos out there showing horrible technique and unsafe methods even though they are using "safety" gear. Not sure what the best answer is but avoiding the conversation doesnt seem to me to be the best course.

Discussing safety in broad strokes is fine.

My beef is with the leverage of the internet. Everyone treats conversations on the internet like one they have with a single person, in person. You lose context, the ability to confirm the other party understands you, add on information from others you cant control, etc. you don’t actually improve the situation. It’s 100% going to get worse.

The people who are capable of parsing through internet conversations and using that information to improve their outcomes aren’t who I’m worried about.

It’s the people who, prior to reading that “saddle hunting is safe because you’re always tethered to the tree” or “as long as you’re tethered, you’re safer than not being tethered”, weren’t going to do this. Or were going to do it with more caution. They’re who I’m worried about.

You can say you don’t care about them - it’s their fault if they don’t get it and hurt themselves. I just happen to disagree on the ethics of leveraging internet. Especially when there’s almost zero upside to trying to talk about that specific topic in very specific detail on a hunting forum. Especially one that stopped selecting for DIY detail oriented weirdos and now selects for people who want to send status signals with mobile hunting gear.

Wrong thread for the deeper conversation on this.

I’m happy to contribute to any conversations about the practical side of climbing gear. I’ll check out if you all want to dive deep on risk assessment.
 
By that logic you should be hunting on the ground. That is, if you don't suck at it.

I think most people should be hunting on the ground a lot more. Different topic for a different thread.

But my reasoning on gear for climbing trees is most definitely grounded in a hunting strategy that involves being in best position to kill deer. Not finding suitable trees to climb. I only start looking at climbing when climbing is the best option to kill deer by a wide margin. It’s not worth the time and risk otherwise.

By ignoring climbing until I have to do it, I minimize the risk I take on board. And I kill way more deer because I’m not preoccupied with 3rd, 4th, 5th steps in the process before I’ve checked 1st box - finding deer that can be killed, and being good at it.

A lot of folks come to this discussion thinking they HAVE to climb trees to kill deer. Or they HAVE to climb trees to improve their odds dramatically. In some cases, that could be true. But in many cases, there’s tons of other variables that can improve success.

This is why I point to thinking about WHY you hunt in the first place. And why I think being honest about that is necessary to assessing risk, and resource allocation in regards to hunting.

For me, I can admit to myself that i really hunt to make other people like me. climbing a tree to do that becomes considerably less interesting. May not stop doing it. But it will frame the whole problem much differently.

That take is extremely unpopular on here. But it’s one worth considering.
 
it’s amazing

I can do all sorts of things

even last night, I cooked dinner and read a book after

I suppose then I can manage to be into gear and also able to hunt, since I have an iq over room temp

this argumentof yours is made by people that think black and white or like to hunt and don’t like gear and can’t imagine others are different than themselves


You have no idea how I think.

Don't be offended.
 
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