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What makes you safe.

bj139 said:
I guess I'm making enemies on here by posting what I do and I did clip my carabiner in the direction VTbow recommended. I don't know what else I can do. I did this in the past a few times and now Dano sells Helium Aiders that are attached to a dangerous spot in confirmation of what I reported. I don't have to always be right. I am wrong sometimes and when I am I admit it. My boss expects it of me as it is written in His words and I try to follow His commands.
Click to expand...

30" Hawk Helium Step Broke

Just thought I would share with you all. The very first time I went out last week I placed my 30" stick on the tree. Mt very first time using these and the very first step I took on them and this is my result. Thank goodness I wasn't 18' up. I will be contacting Hawk shortly but wanted to share...
saddlehunter.com

What if, for instance, this failure has a 1 in 100,000 chance of happening. That seems reasonable - I've seen a couple steps breaking.

And what if, by tying an aider in the manner that you are referring to, it generated forces on that step that exceeded the the point at which the step would break in that manner? What if it raised the chances of failure, given all those things, to say, 1-10,000?

I'm not telling you that this IS the case. The point of questioning you not only making that modification, but giving the impression it's ok to others to do so, is that you don't know it's not the case.

You're completely changing the dynamic of the forces on the step. And you're putting webbing over a sharp(sharp as in machine finish sharp)90* bend.


Could it be fine? Sure. There's two dynamics at play here though, that are important. One is the assumption that anecdotal evidence is enough to go off of when making decisions with your life. The other is promoting that decision on the internet for others to inform their own decisions. We shouldn't conflate the two.


I don't know if Dano tested them. I don't know if someone else did. I don't think its a good idea - not because it doesn't function well, but because I'm not sold on the risk of doing it that way being low enough to make sense. Maybe it's fine.

But I can look at what happens to a steel 3/8" bolt when a 225lb feller stands on the end of it. I can look at what happens to webbing when it's suddenly loaded(in the event of a kickout or stumble while climbing) and bent over a sharp edge. I can look at some of the failures of Hawk steps. And I can put these three things together, and come up with a reasonable concern that it may not be the best idea.


Mostly, the concern expressed when you posted your idea, was for YOUR safety. A secondary concern was the scaling of bad ideas.


Like here - VT is giving you potentially life saving advice. For you - it's your 174th backup in your system. But someone may cloud over that and just see you arguing that its correct, and assume theirs is correct, and use their ONLY carabiner that way. It seems odd to argue with someone who not only has your best interests at heart, but has clearly shown their expertise on the topic. If he told me I was doing something out of spec or against industry standard in regards to being 20' off the ground, I'd stop it immediately, and seek more information from him. I wouldn't tell him he's wrong.

People that are competent, AND willing to help, AND nice, are very rare. We should be grateful and humbled that they are around to help.


No one here wants to just prove you wrong man. Just trying to help
 
kyler1945 said:

30" Hawk Helium Step Broke

Just thought I would share with you all. The very first time I went out last week I placed my 30" stick on the tree. Mt very first time using these and the very first step I took on them and this is my result. Thank goodness I wasn't 18' up. I will be contacting Hawk shortly but wanted to share...
saddlehunter.com

What if, for instance, this failure has a 1 in 100,000 chance of happening. That seems reasonable - I've seen a couple steps breaking.

And what if, by tying an aider in the manner that you are referring to, it generated forces on that step that exceeded the the point at which the step would break in that manner? What if it raised the chances of failure, given all those things, to say, 1-10,000?

I'm not telling you that this IS the case. The point of questioning you not only making that modification, but giving the impression it's ok to others to do so, is that you don't know it's not the case.

You're completely changing the dynamic of the forces on the step. And you're putting webbing over a sharp(sharp as in machine finish sharp)90* bend.


Could it be fine? Sure. There's two dynamics at play here though, that are important. One is the assumption that anecdotal evidence is enough to go off of when making decisions with your life. The other is promoting that decision on the internet for others to inform their own decisions. We shouldn't conflate the two.


I don't know if Dano tested them. I don't know if someone else did. I don't think its a good idea - not because it doesn't function well, but because I'm not sold on the risk of doing it that way being low enough to make sense. Maybe it's fine.

But I can look at what happens to a steel 3/8" bolt when a 225lb feller stands on the end of it. I can look at what happens to webbing when it's suddenly loaded(in the event of a kickout or stumble while climbing) and bent over a sharp edge. I can look at some of the failures of Hawk steps. And I can put these three things together, and come up with a reasonable concern that it may not be the best idea.


Mostly, the concern expressed when you posted your idea, was for YOUR safety. A secondary concern was the scaling of bad ideas.


Like here - VT is giving you potentially life saving advice. For you - it's your 174th backup in your system. But someone may cloud over that and just see you arguing that its correct, and assume theirs is correct, and use their ONLY carabiner that way. It seems odd to argue with someone who not only has your best interests at heart, but has clearly shown their expertise on the topic. If he told me I was doing something out of spec or against industry standard in regards to being 20' off the ground, I'd stop it immediately, and seek more information from him. I wouldn't tell him he's wrong.

People that are competent, AND willing to help, AND nice, are very rare. We should be grateful and humbled that they are around to help.


No one here wants to just prove you wrong man. Just trying to help
Click to expand...
I could just remove my backup completely and all would be good. I posted a video showing it is clipped the right way. Nothing else I can do except remove my backup which I don't want to do. The sling provides a second function other than backup fall prevention. It keeps the ascender within arm's reach so I can always reach it in case I need to climb up again.

The aider question has each side of the step supporting half your weight when using the aider. Only loaded to half it should be good, IMHO. It might be much more dangerous when used as the manufacturer intended according to recent posts on a broken step. I am not using sticks 99.9% of my climbs now so I can't get injured that way if I don't climb that way.

It may not sound it but I appreciate your posts concerning my safety. You have made me think a lot deeper into the situation. I doubt I will climb anyway but SRT from now on since it has so many advantages and can be backed up easily. I have managed to overcome it's biggest problem, getting the rope into the tree.
 
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Well, my first saddle will not be delivered till later this month . My rope experience is limited to my lineman’s and my safety tether. I have a rope man 1 on the lineman’s and a prussik on the safety tether. They have worked well for years but I am about to re-examine my setup and will likely try and post pics on here to ask if there are flaws that need corrected.
I must say, I have set my weight on my muddy harness attached to safety tether. Safety is important, I wish there was someone regional to everyone to get their knots and setup inspected
 
D.AKINS said:
Well, my first saddle will not be delivered till later this month . My rope experience is limited to my lineman’s and my safety tether. I have a rope man 1 on the lineman’s and a prussik on the safety tether. They have worked well for years but I am about to re-examine my setup and will likely try and post pics on here to ask if there are flaws that need corrected.
I must say, I have set my weight on my muddy harness attached to safety tether. Safety is important, I wish there was someone regional to everyone to get their knots and setup inspected
Click to expand...

where do you live
 
D.AKINS said:
Well, my first saddle will not be delivered till later this month . My rope experience is limited to my lineman’s and my safety tether. I have a rope man 1 on the lineman’s and a prussik on the safety tether. They have worked well for years but I am about to re-examine my setup and will likely try and post pics on here to ask if there are flaws that need corrected.
I must say, I have set my weight on my muddy harness attached to safety tether. Safety is important, I wish there was someone regional to everyone to get their knots and setup inspected
Click to expand...
You're in Alabama? Maybe you could have a beer with @Nutterbuster and he could make sure you get all the secret sauce.
 
@kyler1945 is always saying some newbie will read one post and say, "they said it was OK on SH". I see his point. If someone reads the whole thread they will realize these are jokes but many people just skim through life.
 
mattsteg said:
So it's rated for @Nutterbuster 's deer?

If it's good enough for paratroopers, it's good enough for me! (Seriously, I'd be ok suspending from dozens of lines of paracord, but that doesn't seem practical)
Click to expand...
How many paracord bridges you need to be safe?
 
Nutterbuster said:
For sure. The safety nerds act all weird about it, but most climbers and stands are only rated for like 300lbs tops.
Click to expand...

Dan Infalt wrote to me on the beast forum (while he was designing his stand) that TMA requires the platform to hold 900 lbs to get the 300 lbs rating, but I think the seat only has to hold 450 lbs. I'd have to dig that post out. It isn't huge numbers though (I wonder what my Loc On Limit that only weighs 7 lbs can hold....shudders). A piece of sewn climbing webbing or piece of Oplux is way stronger.
 
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