Who has snorted the Fairy Dust?

[Jimdude]

One useful thing I discovered for tinkering with different weights is that you can buy weights that screw into the back of the stock inserts via a long Allen wrench going in from the nock end. My black eagle and gold tip arrows all have inserts pre threaded for this from the factory.

I was messing around with those back weights last year but I lost confidence in them. A 50 grain weight added lengthens the insert quite a bit which stiffness the arrow. I decided to remove that variable from my tuning and just play with head weight instead. As an added bonus, it moves the weight forward more to squeeze out every bit of foc too.

 

[Weldabeast]

I guess my question is, for those who are now over the Ashby 650, why?

 

[Plebe]

View attachment 65923

Right on. I knew there had to be a good reason.

 

[DroptineKrazy]

I don't think you need a reason. I shoot what I want and you shoot what you want. Become the arrow is a real thing. I have been shooting just one pin and a heavy arrow set up for 40 years and I know where my arrow hits at 5 yards and I know where it hits at 45 yards. Doesn't matter the flavor of the day as far as arrow weight goes. It comes down to practice and knowing your gear. A few years back I missed a chip shot on a doe at 20 yards but she came back to get her 2 fawns. I estimated the yardage at about 45 and held for that distance. I 10 ringed her and she went about 60 yards and piled up. You need to practice judging distances too. I went back the next day to find my arrow as it had blown right through her and buried in the marsh grass(saltwater marsh where I shot her) I found my arrow and ranged the tree I was in and it ranged at 49 yards.

 

[Plebe]

I don't think you need a reason. I shoot what I want and you shoot what you want. Become the arrow is a real thing. I have been shooting just one pin and a heavy arrow set up for 40 years and I know where my arrow hits at 5 yards and I know where it hits at 45 yards. Doesn't matter the flavor of the day as far as arrow weight goes. It comes down to practice and knowing your gear. A few years back I missed a chip shot on a doe at 20 yards but she came back to get her 2 fawns. I estimated the yardage at about 45 and held for that distance. I 10 ringed her and she went about 60 yards and piled up. You need to practice judging distances too. I went back the next day to find my arrow as it had blown right through her and buried in the marsh grass(saltwater marsh where I shot her) I found my arrow and ranged the tree I was in and it ranged at 49 yards.

I need a reason.

Your reason might not be my reason, but I try to do things with a purpose. Knowing the arguments and understanding them as best as I can is important to me.

Of course, wherever we all land, proficiency is important, and practice is a component of that. I'm not criticizing choices. I'm trying to learn from them.

650 is easy to understand. Ashby concluded that based on a study he did. We can debate the study, but that's a whole other can of tuna.

Is 650+ like a mine's bigger thing, or is it more like it just added up to 1000grains, or is their specific thinking to it?

Just trying to learn. I've had the Alaska Bowhunting Supply field point kit since before Ranch Fairy. I've wavered on what setup is best for me for a long time, but ran with what I had because it worked. I'm at a place now that making changes or not is something I have to do.

 

[Weldabeast]

I didn't have a weight goal....I just tested heavier and heavier until it wouldn't flew true. My main goal was an arrow I can confidently shoot thru palmetto fronds.....I have had that situation happen with animals lots of times....critter is behind palmettos/brush and I'm only able to catch glimpse here and there....

 

[MattMan81]

I don't think you need a reason. I shoot what I want and you shoot what you want. Become the arrow is a real thing. I have been shooting just one pin and a heavy arrow set up for 40 years and I know where my arrow hits at 5 yards and I know where it hits at 45 yards. Doesn't matter the flavor of the day as far as arrow weight goes. It comes down to practice and knowing your gear. A few years back I missed a chip shot on a doe at 20 yards but she came back to get her 2 fawns. I estimated the yardage at about 45 and held for that distance. I 10 ringed her and she went about 60 yards and piled up. You need to practice judging distances too. I went back the next day to find my arrow as it had blown right through her and buried in the marsh grass(saltwater marsh where I shot her) I found my arrow and ranged the tree I was in and it ranged at 49 yards.

X2 on this. What ever you shoot. Shoot it often so you know what you got and how it shoots. I was at 680 last year. I was contemplating putting my arrows on a diet. But after I thought about it some more. I decided I got other things to do other than tinker with my arrows and try to gain 5-10fps. Plan to keep practicing instead and plant my garden.

 

[Bowtie747]

I need a reason.

Your reason might not be my reason, but I try to do things with a purpose. Knowing the arguments and understanding them as best as I can is important to me.

Of course, wherever we all land, proficiency is important, and practice is a component of that. I'm not criticizing choices. I'm trying to learn from them.

650 is easy to understand. Ashby concluded that based on a study he did. We can debate the study, but that's a whole other can of tuna.

Is 650+ like a mine's bigger thing, or is it more like it just added up to 1000grains, or is their specific thinking to it?

Just trying to learn. I've had the Alaska Bowhunting Supply field point kit since before Ranch Fairy. I've wavered on what setup is best for me for a long time, but ran with what I had because it worked. I'm at a place now that making changes or not is something I have to do.

I definitely see your point, so I’m a heavyweight arrow guy. Well I like the theory and the ideas. I only shoot a 550 to 600 grain arrow. I just wonder though like you beyond getting proper flight for some, why do guys seem to set certain numbers in their heads? “Like I’m shootings a 681 grain arrow” kind of thing. Idk, I don’t understand stuff like that. To each their own, no hate here. I don’t get the reasoning is all I’m saying.

I’m looking at playing with a super easy to setup heavyweight arrow this year. Starts around 550 with a 100 grain tip so you could see how easily it would be to step up weights as long as they tune. I haven’t seen many 250 spine arrows not tune within reason of course.

 

[Plebe]

I didn't have a weight goal....I just tested heavier and heavier until it wouldn't flew true. My main goal was an arrow I can confidently shoot thru palmetto fronds.....I have had that situation happen with animals lots of times....critter is behind palmettos/brush and I'm only able to catch glimpse here and there....

This makes sense. You guys have it tuff in FL.

In addition to the flora, I'd probably shoot 2000 grains with the snakes and gators you got.

I'm sure the mass helps against deflection.

 

[Zero One Actual]

I didn't have a weight goal....I just tested heavier and heavier until it wouldn't flew true. My main goal was an arrow I can confidently shoot thru palmetto fronds.....I have had that situation happen with animals lots of times....critter is behind palmettos/brush and I'm only able to catch glimpse here and there....

I missed on a really nice pig due to a palm frond and my arrows are over 600. 200 grain single bevel and that palm still deflected the arrow. 65lb at 31in DL. I still see that frond shaking back and forth like a hand waving “bye”.

 

[Weldabeast]

I missed on a really nice pig due to a palm frond and my arrows are over 600. 200 grain single bevel and that palm still deflected the arrow. 65lb at 31in DL. I still see that frond shaking back and forth like a hand waving “bye”.

U haven't reached the frond breaking threshold yet

650 for bones
750 for fronds

 

[Zero One Actual]

U haven't reached the frond breaking threshold yet

650 for bones
750 for fronds

I ground stalked in a leafy suit and had her and about five or six medium sized hogs inside of 15 yards. They were eating and didn’t even see me. Moving from my left to right, broadside shot, let it rip, green. No red. Pigs. Gone. All I see is the lighted nock vibrating back and forth in the freshly churned earth laughing at me and a green frond waving. Luckily I was alone so nobody knows about it. Just you. So don’t tell anyone else.

 

[Weldabeast]

I ground stalked in a leafy suit and had her and about five or six medium sized hogs inside of 15 yards. They were eating and didn’t even see me. Moving from my left to right, broadside shot, let it rip, green. No red. Pigs. Gone. All I see is the lighted nock vibrating back and forth in the freshly churned earth laughing at me and a green frond waving. Luckily I was alone so nobody knows about it. Just you. So don’t tell anyone else.

Secrets safe with me.... I've never had anything like what u described ever happen to me ever.......hahaha

 

[NMSbowhunter]

I got into heavy arrows and single bevel broadheads after experiencing a light arrow's failure to penetrate on a nice buck. It was a steep downhill shot that connected high on the shoulder angling forward. That arrow just stopped like it hit a 2x4 with a sharp whack sound and knocked the buck to his knees. He was up again in an instant and gone for good. I heard he was seen again a few weeks later apparently little worse for wear. I feel confident if I had been shooting my present set up that the buck would be on my wall now.

Two years later, after switching to a roughly 650 grain set up with a single bevel broadhead at about 28% FOC, I broke down a very large bodied buck at 12 yards with a broadside shot straight through both shoulders. The buck never took another upright step after receiving that arrow. The single bevel cut the offside humorous bone in half. I was hunting a small property and needed to anchor him. It did just that.

I have shot numerous does with this setup and when you don't hit bone it just sails through without upsetting them and they usually trot a short distance, look back to see what made that sound, get dizzy and tip over. A heavy arrow like this also makes my bow very quiet which helps to not spook deer at the shot also. I would rather have a slower silent arrow than a fast, loud arrow. Until we have a bow that will get an arrow to a deer faster than the speed of sound, they will sometimes hear the shot and move before the arrow gets there.

When setting up this arrow system I wanted it at or near the heavy bone threshold. The only one of the 12 factors of Dr. Ashby's research I have not incorporated is tapered arrow shafts.

I also don't worry about trajectory. I haven't shot a deer past 20 yards in the past 4 years and 16 yards is about average. I have taken a few does at 6 yards.

I don't have issue with anyone else's set up. If you like light and fast and it is working for you then keep doing it. It stopped working for me when the chips were down, so I switched.

Pictured below is an impromptu bone test I did with my Northern Mist longbow. The arrow is about 650 grains with over 30% FOC. Arrow speed is a scorching 160 fps. The bone is the humorous bone from a freshly killed buck. The bone was free swinging and placed with a hay bale behind it. Shot was from 12 yards and hit the bone in the thickest part, where the bone is solid.

 

[woodsdog2]

What does seem to matter on speed though is trajectory. For me it isn’t about pin gaps. It’s about being able to shoot a single pin, and not worry about gaps.

I put pin on deer and shot. I hit within an inch of where I aimed. Dead animal.

^^^^^^ This is EXACTLY what I have been doing for years. I read an article decades ago from a Canadian bowhunter who was successful on bears and deer and everything else but he wasn't a big name hunter. Anyway, he had an article on using two pins where his first pin was from 0 to 25 yards and his second pin was set for from 25 to 45 yards (roughly) and he sighted his second pin in the same way, so at 25 he was hitting high in the vitals and at 45 he was hitting low in the vitals. So essentially he could hunt with two pins from 0 to 50 yards. Back then with heavy arrows and slow compounds that was a huge simplification.

I adapted my own system from this article using one pin standing at point blank and adjusting the one pin so it would strike in the upper third of an 8" kill zone and then kept shooting and moving back until the arrows grouped in the lower third of the 8" kill zone consistently. Conceivably, with elk and heavy arrows, due to the larger kill zone, you could probably increase your 0 to whatever one pin distance a bit further say by using a 12" kill zone. In other words, with that increased kill zone size of the vitals of an elk, you could possibly be shooting from 0 to perhaps 35 yards by just aiming point on and knowing that your arrow will fall within that 12" vital zone for a killing shot. If you wanted a system for further distances, you could add another pin, sighting so you are grouping from 35 to perhaps 65 yards with the second pin so perhaps 35 to 65 yards. This is a hunting analysis not a target 12 spot analysis I'm talking about here. As long as you can consistently group the arrows in that vital zone size to be ethical about it.

Back in the day with slow bows and heavy arrows, range estimation and as few as pins as possible was a super critical need. I knew several old time bowhunters who either shot heavy wood arrows or Easton XX75's sized 2020 shafts......!! Talk about logs!!! But they never had penetration problems either. Most of them started out trad and adapted their arrow setups to the compounds still using COC broadheads like Zwickey Black Diamonds or Bear Razorheads. Anyway, my point is the arrows were slow logs flying through the air and distance estimation was crucial for success. Guess what, it still is!! So therefore, and I know I've said this on here before:

A single pin setup where you can basically point and pull on a deer is the absolute best system for bowhunting whitetails and pigs at eastern distances. I can understand out west wanting many more options but if you can really simplify your sight picture, I highly, highly recommend a system like this.

 

[woodsdog2]

And I wanted to add, I recently read in one of the popular bowhunting periodicals an article on bowhunting accuracy and group sizes and I was really kind of put off by this editor's comments about group sizes for hunting. In a nutshell, he was criticizing us old dudes who used to shoot at a pie plate and be happy with the groups. He definitely oversimplified the whole pie plate thing and what I sensed was advertising and marketing influences really being a part of his analysis instead of bowhunting. Which is upsetting to me. At the end of the day we want to encourage more hunters and young hunters and women hunters. Not everybody can group arrows in a 50 cent piece sized bullseye. And in the deer woods, the good news is you don't have too!! If you can consistently group arrows in the 8" size vital zone of deer out to 40 yards, you should be bowhunting. I am a reasonably good shot so grouping arrows tightly at 20, 30 and even 40 yards is not a problem for me typically. But my sighting system for the deer woods is based on the Pie plate!!!

 

[BTaylor]

I need a reason.

There are too many variables to make a definitive declaration. Type of bow, draw weight, draw length, animals hunted, avg distance of shot, ability of the shooter, type of broadhead, etc. all come into play. So maybe look at it from a different perspective. Arguably the 3 most important considerations are accuracy, penetration and arrow flight or poi across a set of ranges. You can immediately throw out accuracy. If high FOC or heavy arrows were critical to accuracy, tournament archers would be shooting that setup and they dont. Weight can certainly be important for penetration but terminal penetration is going to be impacted also by head choice, tune, arrow spine, parts encountered on impact and movement of the animal, etc. It's a very dynamic metric to evaluate. So arrow flight, how much arch is in your archery from say 5 yards to 30 yards. It's pretty safe to say the avg shooter is going to be consistently more accurate in a hunting scenario when they cant always range the animal with a flatter shooting arrow. Add in to that hunting out west for mule deer or elk where being able to make a good shot at a longer distance may be needed but you are hunting bigger animals that your avg whitetail. This thinking is why I have always felt a moderate setup the better way to go for most compound shooters. Build the system around shooting the heaviest arrow you can and still maintain somewhere between 265-280 fps. This will make for a pretty quiet bow that shoots reasonably flat and an arrow with enough azz to blow through most critters in North America excluding a direct knuckle hit or spine hit. If you are only going to hunt whitetails at distances of 20 or less and you have the ability to properly tune a high foc heavy weight setup, by all means let the big dog eat. You may also have the ability to tune that setup and accurately shoot it out to 50-60 yards and if you can, get after it. Just remember you are not the avg bowhunter. The kid that is just starting to drive doesnt need a corvette and he doesnt need and F250 King Ranch, he needs something like a tacoma, functional that gets the job done. That's where we should all be encouraging the avg bowhunter imo.

 

[woodsdog2]

I wanted to add that the sight system I adapted from that Canadian bowhunter article was later vindicated by Roy Marlow in his excellent book Timeless Bowhunting in the chapter on sighting systems. The book is now 18 years old but the principals are relevant and always will be.

 

[NMSbowhunter]

I shoot a single pin also on an HHA slider. I set it for the best trajectory from 6 to 25 yards. This is usually about 22 yards, and it will be about 1 1/2 inches high at 6 and maybe an inch low at 25 to 27. That covers all my needs. I don't move it once it is dialed in. I just practice shooting from unknown distances and weird angles. I hunt thick stuff so if a deer is at 40 yards I most likely won't see it. The only thing on the sight I do move in the field is the hood over the fiber optics. Often late in the day I have to open it up a bit to let in more light for those low light, last minute of the day shots.

With the heavy, high FOC arrow I aim for the exit. I don't need speed, but I do need to be able to get to the vitals of a buck when he presents me with one 20 second opportunity per season at some weird shot angle. I have to be able to pick a spot to hit fast that will take that broadhead through the middle of his vitals.

 

[Cotehex]

There are too many variables to make a definitive declaration. Type of bow, draw weight, draw length, animals hunted, avg distance of shot, ability of the shooter, type of broadhead, etc. all come into play. So maybe look at it from a different perspective. Arguably the 3 most important considerations are accuracy, penetration and arrow flight or poi across a set of ranges. You can immediately throw out accuracy. If high FOC or heavy arrows were critical to accuracy, tournament archers would be shooting that setup and they dont. Weight can certainly be important for penetration but terminal penetration is going to be impacted also by head choice, tune, arrow spine, parts encountered on impact and movement of the animal, etc. It's a very dynamic metric to evaluate. So arrow flight, how much arch is in your archery from say 5 yards to 30 yards. It's pretty safe to say the avg shooter is going to be consistently more accurate in a hunting scenario when they cant always range the animal with a flatter shooting arrow. Add in to that hunting out west for mule deer or elk where being able to make a good shot at a longer distance may be needed but you are hunting bigger animals that your avg whitetail. This thinking is why I have always felt a moderate setup the better way to go for most compound shooters. Build the system around shooting the heaviest arrow you can and still maintain somewhere between 265-280 fps. This will make for a pretty quiet bow that shoots reasonably flat and an arrow with enough azz to blow through most critters in North America excluding a direct knuckle hit or spine hit. If you are only going to hunt whitetails at distances of 20 or less and you have the ability to properly tune a high foc heavy weight setup, by all means let the big dog eat. You may also have the ability to tune that setup and accurately shoot it out to 50-60 yards and if you can, get after it. Just remember you are not the avg bowhunter. The kid that is just starting to drive doesnt need a corvette and he doesnt need and F250 King Ranch, he needs something like a tacoma, functional that gets the job done. That's where we should all be encouraging the avg bowhunter imo.

This is exactly what I believe. Moderate Setup. I don't want to be on either end of extreme.