Who has snorted the Fairy Dust?

[NMSbowhunter]

There are too many variables to make a definitive declaration. Type of bow, draw weight, draw length, animals hunted, avg distance of shot, ability of the shooter, type of broadhead, etc. all come into play. So maybe look at it from a different perspective. Arguably the 3 most important considerations are accuracy, penetration and arrow flight or poi across a set of ranges. You can immediately throw out accuracy. If high FOC or heavy arrows were critical to accuracy, tournament archers would be shooting that setup and they dont. Weight can certainly be important for penetration but terminal penetration is going to be impacted also by head choice, tune, arrow spine, parts encountered on impact and movement of the animal, etc. It's a very dynamic metric to evaluate. So arrow flight, how much arch is in your archery from say 5 yards to 30 yards. It's pretty safe to say the avg shooter is going to be consistently more accurate in a hunting scenario when they cant always range the animal with a flatter shooting arrow. Add in to that hunting out west for mule deer or elk where being able to make a good shot at a longer distance may be needed but you are hunting bigger animals that your avg whitetail. This thinking is why I have always felt a moderate setup the better way to go for most compound shooters. Build the system around shooting the heaviest arrow you can and still maintain somewhere between 265-280 fps. This will make for a pretty quiet bow that shoots reasonably flat and an arrow with enough azz to blow through most critters in North America excluding a direct knuckle hit or spine hit. If you are only going to hunt whitetails at distances of 20 or less and you have the ability to properly tune a high foc heavy weight setup, by all means let the big dog eat. You may also have the ability to tune that setup and accurately shoot it out to 50-60 yards and if you can, get after it. Just remember you are not the avg bowhunter. The kid that is just starting to drive doesnt need a corvette and he doesnt need and F250 King Ranch, he needs something like a tacoma, functional that gets the job done. That's where we should all be encouraging the avg bowhunter imo.

I agree. For a guy or gal just starting out, a 475 to 500 grain arrow at a decent speed with a good cut on contact head like a Magnus stinger would be a great starting point. Tune it to fly like a dart. No need to go 650 off the bat. If they want to do that later the information is out there.

 

[Saddle Donkey]

So I understand all the physics and mechanics that deal with the heavy arrow trend right now and without a doubt they work, but that being said there are some other things to take into consideration before making the jump. Speed and trajectory, speed is greatly affected by the weight of the arrow during the arrows trajectory. Unless your pulling 70-90 pounds your speed will be greatly reduced which can lead to animals ducking the arrow with shots over 30 yards. But that being said if you hit your mark you with a high FOC arrow, your pass through odds are much higher due to momentum. I went and bought the FMJ arrows and with my 31" draw coming out of my VXR set at 70 pounds with 125 tips, I shot through the target at the bow show and it punched through the metal wall as well, I was like WOW, I can kill a Grizzly lol. Well im hunting lil swamp deer here in Louisiana not slow moving bears, and deer are quick on their feet. So I decided after some research that I can get the same or better FOC and keep my speed with micro diameter arrows. The arrows have less surface area to prevent friction during the pass through, the wind doesn't affect them as much, and seem stiffer than arrows with the same 300 rating. Shooting both at my bag target at home Im getting the same penetration with the FMJ with the 125 field point vs the micro diameter with the 125 field point. I understand that's not an animal I'm shooting at but that's the at home tests I did. Easton 4mm shafts are around 9-10 gpi and with a 125g Magnus, I was getting 15% FOC at 450-500g. Easton is proud of their micro diameters mind you. I didn't have any interest in using the heavier broadheads unless I go make an out of state trip for something exotic. Hope this is helpful.

 

[Weldabeast]

My son and I shoot his little red Ryder 1 pump bb gun.....it's really slow and the trajectory is horrible but we are accurate the whole length of the yard..55yds. we shoot nonnative lizards off the fence at 20yds....i gotta bucket lid up against the fence and we see who can hit the lid best outta 5. I watched him from his very first shot till now and watched his brain figure out the holdover.

I practice shooting my bow the same way. Don't range and I'm not standing like a statue at 20,30,40 and shooting like I'm at a range.....enough misses and my brain starts to recognize the holdover and distances....

 

[DroptineKrazy]

My son and I shoot his little red Ryder 1 pump bb gun.....it's really slow and the trajectory is horrible but we are accurate the whole length of the yard..55yds. we shoot nonnative lizards off the fence at 20yds....i gotta bucket lid up against the fence and we see who can hit the lid best outta 5. I watched him from his very first shot till now and watched his brain figure out the holdover.

I practice shooting my bow the same way. Don't range and I'm not standing like a statue at 20,30,40 and shooting like I'm at a range.....enough misses and my brain starts to recognize the holdover and distances....

That's a perfect analogy @Weldabeast. I grew up shooting a Red Ryder and that's exactly how you have to shoot it to be accurate. That's also exactly how I shoot my Mathews vxr with heavy arrows.

 

[Weldabeast]

Peek a boo.....I kill u

 

[Rutman]

Tagged for later…. I’ve got some Sirius Apollo 250’s set up at 585 grains with 150gr Magnus buzz cut. Flying like darts and hitting HARD out to 40. I doubt I’ll take any shots past that with any set up. Shooting a Hoyt Ventum Pro 70lbs, 29in draw. Shooting fast enough…


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Spartan]

I shoot 400-450 grain total-weight arrows in both my vertical bows and crossbows. Been aware of all this heavy arrow fuss for a couple years now, and have experimented with it. If you are well-tuned and have good shot placement (practice, practice, practice), those heavy arrows won't make a lick of difference on North American game. You're just wasting money and sacrificing flatness of trajectory. It's a crutch, a magic bullet, that people are trying to sell in order to short-cut putting the work in that is needed to make good shots with archery tackle. I know people will see that as harsh, but it is the reality.

 

[Bowmanmike]

I shoot 400-450 grain total-weight arrows in both my vertical bows and crossbows. Been aware of all this heavy arrow fuss for a couple years now, and have experimented with it. If you are well-tuned and have good shot placement (practice, practice, practice), those heavy arrows won't make a lick of difference on North American game. You're just wasting money and sacrificing flatness of trajectory. It's a crutch, a magic bullet, that people are trying to sell in order to short-cut putting the work in that is needed to make good shots with archery tackle. I know people will see that as harsh, but it is the reality.

I don't think you understand the premise of heavy arrows. Most people don't shoot them because they can't hit a barn door but as insurance for when the deer is not in the spot that you aimed at when your arrow gets there. That can happen to a 180 fps arrow or a 320 fps arrow because they can react that fast.
The heavy arrow is insurance for when a bone gets in the way.

 

[Spartan]

Ha. I completely understand the premise. OP was mostly speaking to accuracy/consistency, and only lightly alluded to penetration. But my words covered both. And as far as bones go, if you’re hitting any bones on the entry other than ribs, it means you need to better tune and/or practice more. A bad shot with a 600+ grain arrow is only a tiny fraction better than a bad shot with a 400 grain arrow. Solve the underlying problem, don’t just put a bandaid on it.

 

[NMSbowhunter]

Heavy arrows and high FOC, etc. isn't about the arrow getting to the animal. It is about what happens after it gets there.

I practice a lot. I've had to have strings replaced every 2 years because I wear them out on my compound. Standing flat footed in my back yard, rested, unrushed, and calm I can put arrows on target all day, any day. Plus, my bag target does me the courtesy of not swapping ends and running off. After I've been in a tree for 8 hours in 32 degree weather and I am cramped up and stiff and I get a sudden adrenalin dump because a good buck just showed up out of the blue, I can't count on that fair weather practice I did all summer to get me through. I'm human and prone to all the human physiological breakdowns and shooting errors that come with adverse conditions and fast reacting animals.

As far as shooting an arrow fast enough to beat a whitetail deer's reaction time. Well, the physics of that is pretty simple. The speed of sound is 1125 fps at sea level. Any bow shooting slower than that can and will give a deer the chance to hear the shot and move before the arrow gets there. They don't always do so, but it happens pretty often. The fastest bow currently offered only does about 1/3 the velocity of a 22 short.

But, as I said in a previous post. If you are happy with light and fast the keep at it. I hope you continue to have good results.

 

[kyler1945]

Ha. I completely understand the premise. OP was mostly speaking to accuracy/consistency, and only lightly alluded to penetration. But my words covered both. And as far as bones go, if you’re hitting any bones on the entry other than ribs, it means you need to better tune and/or practice more. A bad shot with a 600+ grain arrow is only a tiny fraction better than a bad shot with a 400 grain arrow. Solve the underlying problem, don’t just put a bandaid on it.

What evidence do you have to support your opinion?

 

[BTaylor]

I shoot 400-450 grain total-weight arrows in both my vertical bows and crossbows. Been aware of all this heavy arrow fuss for a couple years now, and have experimented with it. If you are well-tuned and have good shot placement (practice, practice, practice), those heavy arrows won't make a lick of difference on North American game. You're just wasting money and sacrificing flatness of trajectory. It's a crutch, a magic bullet, that people are trying to sell in order to short-cut putting the work in that is needed to make good shots with archery tackle. I know people will see that as harsh, but it is the reality.

I dont entirely disagree with your post but mostly I do because there are too many variables your statement does not address to be blanket accurate. Most obviously is not addressing the chosen broadhead type or build. The sentence I italicized I cant agree with at all. To start with it flies in the face of pretty much the entirety of modern bowhunting history. Second the guys who go to the effort of setting up a heavy and or high foc arrow are not the types to not spend a lot of time shooting and tuning their equipment. The guys that dont put any effort into that are the ones that go to the bow shop or walmart and grab a few new arrows each year and screw a mechanical head on because they "shoot like filed points" and take a handful of shots the afternoon before the first hunt and go climb a tree. Way more of them than there are high foc / heavy arrow folks. Will the 400 grain setup with great tune and shot placement work, absolutely with the right head relative to the rest of the setup. Same with the 650-700 grain setup, still need great tune and accuracy to optimally effective but head choice is a little less critical.

 

[michigandrake]

I dont entirely disagree with your post but mostly I do because there are too many variables your statement does not address to be blanket accurate. Most obviously is not addressing the chosen broadhead type or build. The sentence I italicized I cant agree with at all. To start with it flies in the face of pretty much the entirety of modern bowhunting history. Second the guys who go to the effort of setting up a heavy and or high foc arrow are not the types to not spend a lot of time shooting and tuning their equipment. The guys that dont put any effort into that are the ones that go to the bow shop or walmart and grab a few new arrows each year and screw a mechanical head on because they "shoot like filed points" and take a handful of shots the afternoon before the first hunt and go climb a tree. Way more of them than there are high foc / heavy arrow folks. Will the 400 grain setup with great tune and shot placement work, absolutely with the right head relative to the rest of the setup. Same with the 650-700 grain setup, still need great tune and accuracy to optimally effective but head choice is a little less critical.

Totally agree ...... I see mechanical broadheads as the crutch or magic bullet for most people. They allow a poorly tuned bow to hit just like a field point while not addressing the flaws that make a fixed broadheads fly funny. I see it all the time with guys that hunt at my camp. They can pound the target with good groups but ignore the fact their arrows are nock high and stuck in the target at a 15 degree angle. They are skipping the work and going with the band aid.

 

[Jimdude]

Deer reaction time: I don’t care how fast your bow can shoot, I guarantee it’s not faster than my crossbow! I have a trail cam video of me shooting a buck with my crossbow. I slowed it down frame by frame and studied it. The buck didn’t move till about the time the bolt hit the dirt. However, the fawn behind him was already in motion before the lighted nock entered the picture, and that’s from a crossbow at 18 yards! This is the reason why some people choose to shoot an arrow that can be buried 2 inches into a tree trunk, re sharpened, and used for 20 more years.

 

[slonstdy]

I still can't get over the fact that some folks have decided that their predetermined arrow speed range that they like to shoot is the best of both worlds. Where is the scientific data to say that shooting arrows between "265-280fps" is ideal? There's none other than personal experiences as far as I know. I think that number is a "makes me feel good number" derived by increasing arrow weight enough to drop down the fps by just enough to satisfy their ego without being slandered as a RF disciple so they can safely boast the "best of both worlds" narrative. The same people hung up on a feet per second number state that guys are using "heavy" arrows as a crutch for a poor bow tune or bad shooting and instead preach about good shot placement so you never hit bone. Every heavy arrow guy that we have here seems to be very concerned about bow tune and good arrow flight to the point of needing OCD medication so I'm not sure who came up with that fake news. Folks freely admit to hunting skittish deer and use that to justify their arrow speed, which is an admission that they acknowledge that deer move at the shot which means that their perfectly aimed shot is not hitting the intended point of aim anyway!

Deer are reacting to the twang of the bow spitting arrows at 265-280fps a hell of a lot sooner than when they hear the noise from a heavy slow arrow sailing thru the air at them. At 20 yards, you gave the deer a 20 yard "unnatural sound" head start to react to your arrow by shooting a "fast" arrow because the deer reacts to the bow noise. In essence you are trying to use arrow speed to compensate for that reaction time. Your arrow will never be quicker than the speed of sound. Now a "slower" bow does not emit much noise because more of the bows energy is being transferred to the heavy arrow which means there is less energy being converted to noise. So at the same 20 yards the deer doesn't react to the muffled bow shot which translates to the arrow being that much closer to the deer before it picks up the arrow noise. Someone can do the calculations of a heavy vs light arrow over distance and time to target to see just how negligible the difference really is. The point I'm trying to make is it is better IMO to give deer less time/distance to react to an arrow coming it's way.

"Well if a heavy arrow user misjudges the distance it will be a miss or a bad hit". True and it's the same with a fast arrow except it will be a faster miss or bad hit. No matter what weight you like to shoot, and don't take my story wrong here I'm not judging or trying to persuade anyone shoot heavy or light, but you MUST practice at every range you plan to shoot a live animal at so you know your arrow trajectory and limitations.

Over the course of the last two years I have shot eight deer with arrows weighing 640 and 585 grains with ranges between 18 and 40 yards and not one of them reacted until the arrow made contact with them. 7 out of 8 didn't go 20 yards before stopping to turn around to see what just happened. Some fell within the next few yards and a couple walked off and dropped within eighty yards. On that 8th deer I screwed up a chip shot because I had bow interference with a tree limb so that one is all my fault. And one doe it took me three tries to get an arrow through her but she never moved from the spot she was standing when the first two arrows hit the dirt underneath her. Again, purely my experience but I think it illustrates the benefits of a quiet bow and an arrow not whizzing through the air.

In the end shoot whatever you like and have confidence in. It really only matters to you and not the interweb trolls. One setup is not better than the next because each hunting scenario is different and requires it's own style on how to hunt it. Everyone has different beliefs and no one is wrong with their own choice of arrow weight etc. etc. etc...

Who else feels we need a damn deer season to start soon so we don't keep arguing over stuff that doesn't affect us??

Good luck all!!

 

[Weldabeast]

My last deer was a great example....I was crouched on my knees with no cover sitting as still as possible hunched over making me silhouette/outline as small as possible. 7 does were walking in my direction. As soon as the biggest 1 turned broadside I shot her and she bounded 3 bounds, stopped, looked around for a sec, and fell over.....all the other deer were still standing in the same spot they were watching thier buddy act weird. I could have nocked a second arrow and fired again if they didn't catch movement.....I stayed crouched till my deer fell over and a second or 2 longer before I raised up and then the other deer ran off. I ranged my distance at 20yds +/- . So the bow was able to go off with 7 deer under 30yds and nothing ran off other than the deer hit with an arrow. It makes a noise but it's obviously not a scary noise. Once over 550 is gets noticably quieter and the higher u go the quieter it gets...

 

[Cotehex]

I too have shot deer with 465 - 500 grain arrows watched the deer bound out a couple jumps stop and look back to see what the noise was with both mechanical and fixed blade broadheads. I've seen other deer in the group look at their dieing buddy and not know what was going on. Shooting a heavy arrow or a light arrow that animal is going to react to noise over 90% of the time which is exactly what RF says and shows in his videos. I will stick with my arrows that have a reasonable velocity and shoot though everything I've shot for the last 5-6 seasons and stuck in the ground including large bodied Midwest whitetails. If I go elk hunting I may increase weight but for what I'm doing now I like what I have. I hope you all have great success with your setups.

 

[BTaylor]

I still can't get over the fact that some folks have decided that their predetermined arrow speed range that they like to shoot is the best of both worlds. Where is the scientific data to say that shooting arrows between "265-280fps" is ideal? There's none other than personal experiences as far as I know. I think that number is a "makes me feel good number" derived by increasing arrow weight enough to drop down the fps by just enough to satisfy their ego without being slandered as a RF disciple so they can safely boast the "best of both worlds" narrative. The same people hung up on a feet per second number state that guys are using "heavy" arrows as a crutch for a poor bow tune or bad shooting and instead preach about good shot placement so you never hit bone. Every heavy arrow guy that we have here seems to be very concerned about bow tune and good arrow flight to the point of needing OCD medication so I'm not sure who came up with that fake news. Folks freely admit to hunting skittish deer and use that to justify their arrow speed, which is an admission that they acknowledge that deer move at the shot which means that their perfectly aimed shot is not hitting the intended point of aim anyway!

Deer are reacting to the twang of the bow spitting arrows at 265-280fps a hell of a lot sooner than when they hear the noise from a heavy slow arrow sailing thru the air at them. At 20 yards, you gave the deer a 20 yard "unnatural sound" head start to react to your arrow by shooting a "fast" arrow because the deer reacts to the bow noise. In essence you are trying to use arrow speed to compensate for that reaction time. Your arrow will never be quicker than the speed of sound. Now a "slower" bow does not emit much noise because more of the bows energy is being transferred to the heavy arrow which means there is less energy being converted to noise. So at the same 20 yards the deer doesn't react to the muffled bow shot which translates to the arrow being that much closer to the deer before it picks up the arrow noise. Someone can do the calculations of a heavy vs light arrow over distance and time to target to see just how negligible the difference really is. The point I'm trying to make is it is better IMO to give deer less time/distance to react to an arrow coming it's way.

"Well if a heavy arrow user misjudges the distance it will be a miss or a bad hit". True and it's the same with a fast arrow except it will be a faster miss or bad hit. No matter what weight you like to shoot, and don't take my story wrong here I'm not judging or trying to persuade anyone shoot heavy or light, but you MUST practice at every range you plan to shoot a live animal at so you know your arrow trajectory and limitations.

Over the course of the last two years I have shot eight deer with arrows weighing 640 and 585 grains with ranges between 18 and 40 yards and not one of them reacted until the arrow made contact with them. 7 out of 8 didn't go 20 yards before stopping to turn around to see what just happened. Some fell within the next few yards and a couple walked off and dropped within eighty yards. On that 8th deer I screwed up a chip shot because I had bow interference with a tree limb so that one is all my fault. And one doe it took me three tries to get an arrow through her but she never moved from the spot she was standing when the first two arrows hit the dirt underneath her. Again, purely my experience but I think it illustrates the benefits of a quiet bow and an arrow not whizzing through the air.

In the end shoot whatever you like and have confidence in. It really only matters to you and not the interweb trolls. One setup is not better than the next because each hunting scenario is different and requires it's own style on how to hunt it. Everyone has different beliefs and no one is wrong with their own choice of arrow weight etc. etc. etc...

Who else feels we need a damn deer season to start soon so we don't keep arguing over stuff that doesn't affect us??

Good luck all!!

The 280fps mark stems from back when guys started being able to push hunting arrow speeds up to and over 300fps in the late 80's early 90's. As more folks were able to push that speed it became obvious that it was much more difficult to get a fixed blade head to fly well at high bow speeds. 280 seemed to be the consensus where most folks could get pretty much any decently built fixed head to tune and fly well. 265 relates more to pin gap for shots beyond 25-30 yards. The arrow is still fast enough to have pretty small pin gaps when you start dropping below that speed the gaps start expanding pretty fast at distance. The take away being if your hunting setup falls in that range you should be able to pretty easily tune any head you want to shoot and have easily manageable pin gaps out to 50-60 yards. What exactly is science? Testing of theories maybe a big part? Maybe those guys with decades of experience with virtually every conceivable setup have figured a few things out without the need for white coat.

 

[Spartan]

Deer reaction time: I don’t care how fast your bow can shoot, I guarantee it’s not faster than my crossbow! I have a trail cam video of me shooting a buck with my crossbow. I slowed it down frame by frame and studied it. The buck didn’t move till about the time the bolt hit the dirt. However, the fawn behind him was already in motion before the lighted nock entered the picture, and that’s from a crossbow at 18 yards! This is the reason why some people choose to shoot an arrow that can be buried 2 inches into a tree trunk, re sharpened, and used for 20 more years.

Yall must have some deer wearing body armor if the goal is to get the arrow to embed two inches into a tree after a pass through. You can't ever get more of a pass through, so you're just wasting energy and losing critical trajectory flatness for no reason. Optimum arrow efficiencies were figured out centuries ago, if not millennia ago. Nothing has changed in that regard other than the hunting industry wants something new to make money off of, and hunters want something new to tinker with, talk about, and spend their money on. I freely admit that reasonably heavier arrows can be advantageous on some larger game or hogs, but let's be honest, this conversation is really about deer hunting.

 

[Weldabeast]

Yall must have some deer wearing body armor if the goal is to get the arrow to embed two inches into a tree after a pass through. You can't ever get more of a pass through, so you're just wasting energy and losing critical trajectory flatness for no reason. Optimum arrow efficiencies were figured out centuries ago, if not millennia ago. Nothing has changed in that regard other than the hunting industry wants something new to make money off of, and hunters want something new to tinker with, talk about, and spend their money on. I freely admit that reasonably heavier arrows can be advantageous on some larger game or hogs, but let's be honest, this conversation is really about deer hunting.

View attachment 65993

The president has assured us that deer aren't wearing body armor