Who has snorted the Fairy Dust?

[Lowg08]

Hunting Arrows - A Boring In Depth Conversation (Hopefully) | saddlehunter.com

Thank you. While I’m broke down I have been studying a few things

 

[Horn]

Hunting Arrows - A Boring In Depth Conversation (Hopefully) | saddlehunter.com

Excellent info, thanks for sharing. There's a lot to think about in there.

Where does that post fit chronologically with the everymans guide you posted?

 

[kyler1945]

Excellent info, thanks for sharing. There's a lot to think about in there.

Where does that post fit chronologically with the everymans guide you posted?

What he took the long, technical, appropriate way to explain, is the entire foundation of that Everyman guide.

I ignore selecting a bow based on energy output because anyone reading already has a bow. Energy is fixed.

Next step - trad guys have piles of evidence, and aluminum arrow lobbing early compound guys have piles of evidence, and western hunters focusing on trajectory/arrow mass tradeoff have piles of evidence, and my own anecdotal evidence that arrows below 400 grains makes NO sense for poking holes in deer or bigger game, and arrows above 700 grains make NO sense for distances beyond 20 yards for anyone who doesn’t have a limitless devotion to the hobby.

Once i grounded the conversation in rationality, I bounded the conversation in reasonableness. That’s where I came up with the 250fps/500grain threshold.

The everyman’s post is a bet.

I’m willing to bet my reputation as a helpful, useful member of the tribe that if you shoot a razor sharp cut on contact broadhead on the end of a 500+ grain arrow traveling at least 250fps out of a well tuned bow, that you will get the broadhead through the vitals of a deer, holding ALL other variables constant(shooting ability, point of impact, blah blah blah). Like, every time.

Everyone can claim that slightly faster, or slightly heavier may increase odds. In doing so they’re admitting what I’m saying is true.

It isn’t earth shattering or some kind of breakthrough. The data is staring us in the face. It’s just hard to Wade through the bullchit to analyze it.

Me saying that low draw or short draw archers need to shorten their effective range is due to the two main factors of arrow mass and trajectory:

There’s too much evidence that shooting a sub 400grain arrow CAN lead to not going all the way through a deer too often. There’s too much evidence that shooting a 500grain plus arrow WONT lead to not going all the way through a deer.

There’s too much evidence that people ranging deer with rangefinders or EZVs, guessing distances and correlating it to multiple pins, choosing from different pins, essentially, having to make decisions immediately before and while drawn on a deer, CAN miss way too often. And there’s too much evidence that shooters of all types, and especially archers, hit what they’re aiming at far more consistently when the only thing they have to do is execute their shot sequence without making decisions.

This all leads to single pin sight and 250/500 and a max range you can hit +-3” from point of aim at any distance in between.

The guide was written as a way to short circuit the selection and buying process. I should probably update it given the new economics of arrow building, thanks in no small part to Ashby/RF cult.

 

[Horn]

Thanks Kyler, I appreciate your insights and data. Kinda makes me want a newer bow though lol. It'd help at least a little with the 250 fps

 

[slonstdy]

View attachment 67681

The most important part of this data that was left out was the fact that the author arrived at these numbers by using calculations from the moment the arrow was released by using the SOUND OF THE BOW. So yes a deer may drop at the specified numbers above when it's able to hear the bow fire but this chart doesn't take into account many other variables which could affect the deer's reaction time. One of those variables is the reduced sound signature of a bow shooting heavy arrows, another would be distance from bow to deer...

For a clear example of a deer not reacting to the sound from the bow take a look at Seek One's 62 yard shot on YouTube. I don't know the specs of his gear but I feel we can safely assume he is not shooting heavy arrows. According to this chart his arrow had no chance to hit that buck and yet he put that arrow through the boiler room. The deer never heard the bow and therefore didn't react which correlates to what heavy arrow users have been saying about their bow being quiet and deer not reacting. The difference being Seek One used distance instead of arrow weight to help reduce sound.

 

[kyler1945]

The most important part of this data that was left out was the fact that the author arrived at these numbers by using calculations from the moment the arrow was released by using the SOUND OF THE BOW. So yes a deer may drop at the specified numbers above when it's able to hear the bow fire but this chart doesn't take into account many other variables which could affect the deer's reaction time. One of those variables is the reduced sound signature of a bow shooting heavy arrows, another would be distance from bow to deer...

For a clear example of a deer not reacting to the sound from the bow take a look at Seek One's 62 yard shot on YouTube. I don't know the specs of his gear but I feel we can safely assume he is not shooting heavy arrows. According to this chart his arrow had no chance to hit that buck and yet he put that arrow through the boiler room. The deer never heard the bow and therefore didn't react which correlates to what heavy arrow users have been saying about their bow being quiet and deer not reacting. The difference being Seek One used distance instead of arrow weight to help reduce sound.

Or it was a deer with low neuroticism…

 

[Plebe]

The most important part of this data that was left out was the fact that the author arrived at these numbers by using calculations from the moment the arrow was released by using the SOUND OF THE BOW. So yes a deer may drop at the specified numbers above when it's able to hear the bow fire but this chart doesn't take into account many other variables which could affect the deer's reaction time. One of those variables is the reduced sound signature of a bow shooting heavy arrows, another would be distance from bow to deer...

For a clear example of a deer not reacting to the sound from the bow take a look at Seek One's 62 yard shot on YouTube. I don't know the specs of his gear but I feel we can safely assume he is not shooting heavy arrows. According to this chart his arrow had no chance to hit that buck and yet he put that arrow through the boiler room. The deer never heard the bow and therefore didn't react which correlates to what heavy arrow users have been saying about their bow being quiet and deer not reacting. The difference being Seek One used distance instead of arrow weight to help reduce sound.

I didn't leave that out. I wrote "shot noise", specifically. The video said as much.

"Heavy arrows" are largely a "worse case scenario" topic. Well, there you have it.

A video of a deer not reacting is on par with video of a light fast arrow zipping through a deer's lungs and the deer falling dead.

 

[Plebe]

Or it was a deer with low neuroticism…

Or it thought it was just someone shutting the door on their Mercedes SUV, lol. Conditioning. I'm guessing this was a backyard gated neighborhood buck. But I didn't watch the video.

 

[boyne bowhunter]

What he took the long, technical, appropriate way to explain, is the entire foundation of that Everyman guide.

I ignore selecting a bow based on energy output because anyone reading already has a bow. Energy is fixed.

Next step - trad guys have piles of evidence, and aluminum arrow lobbing early compound guys have piles of evidence, and western hunters focusing on trajectory/arrow mass tradeoff have piles of evidence, and my own anecdotal evidence that arrows below 400 grains makes NO sense for poking holes in deer or bigger game, and arrows above 700 grains make NO sense for distances beyond 20 yards for anyone who doesn’t have a limitless devotion to the hobby.

Once i grounded the conversation in rationality, I bounded the conversation in reasonableness. That’s where I came up with the 250fps/500grain threshold.

The everyman’s post is a bet.

I’m willing to bet my reputation as a helpful, useful member of the tribe that if you shoot a razor sharp cut on contact broadhead on the end of a 500+ grain arrow traveling at least 250fps out of a well tuned bow, that you will get the broadhead through the vitals of a deer, holding ALL other variables constant(shooting ability, point of impact, blah blah blah). Like, every time.

Everyone can claim that slightly faster, or slightly heavier may increase odds. In doing so they’re admitting what I’m saying is true.

It isn’t earth shattering or some kind of breakthrough. The data is staring us in the face. It’s just hard to Wade through the bullchit to analyze it.

Me saying that low draw or short draw archers need to shorten their effective range is due to the two main factors of arrow mass and trajectory:

There’s too much evidence that shooting a sub 400grain arrow CAN lead to not going all the way through a deer too often. There’s too much evidence that shooting a 500grain plus arrow WONT lead to not going all the way through a deer.

There’s too much evidence that people ranging deer with rangefinders or EZVs, guessing distances and correlating it to multiple pins, choosing from different pins, essentially, having to make decisions immediately before and while drawn on a deer, CAN miss way too often. And there’s too much evidence that shooters of all types, and especially archers, hit what they’re aiming at far more consistently when the only thing they have to do is execute their shot sequence without making decisions.

This all leads to single pin sight and 250/500 and a max range you can hit +-3” from point of aim at any distance in between.

The guide was written as a way to short circuit the selection and buying process. I should probably update it given the new economics of arrow building, thanks in no small part to Ashby/RF cult.

Honestly I'm using an EZ-V as a sort of single pin sight. I always align the same two horizontal lines with my target and then stare at my point of aim with it centered between them. It helps me in two ways. First my old eyes have some issues seeing a pin and target at the same time. I really like the open view I feel like I have using the EZ-V.

Second it helps me with target panic. Since I'm not trying to time a release with the pin coinciding with the target its easier to just pull through on my own time.

I rarely set up to shoot more than 30yds so the "single distance" method works just fine for me.

 

[WV Mountaineer]

I haven't seen anyone recommend the heaviest arrow possible. because the heaviest arrow possible is almost limitless. Most people i have read on here recommend 550 to 650 TAW with as high a FOC as you can get.
[/QUOTE

The term "possible" really needs to be put into context.
The heavy, high FOC concept revolves around building the heaviest arrow possible in which you can accept the trajectory of that arrow.
When you've reached the threshold of the trajectory that you can live with, then you have built the heaviest arrow possible...for your tolerance of trajectory limitations.

Is there really anything substantial to be gained by reducing weight by ~100 grains when we limit ourselves to 25-30 yard shots?
Speed doesn't kill, momentum does.

I agree with you. Where we differ is I don’t totally dismiss speeds influence on momentum. And anyone that does is drinking the kool aid.

 

[Allegheny Tom]

I agree with you. Where we differ is I don’t totally dismiss speeds influence on momentum. And anyone that does is drinking the kool aid.

I didn't mean to imply that speed isnt a factor.
What I was trying to say is, in regards to penetration, there is more to be gained by heavier and slower than there is to be gained by lighter and faster. Dropping ~100 grains to gain ~50 fps for ethically realistic bow ranges is the wrong approach, not just in my opinion, also well proven by the vast testing and experiments done by Ashby.
This point has been discussed countless times and analogized (is that a word?) by comparing golf balls to ping pong balls and semi trucks to compact cars. Heavy hits harder than lighter.
The main issue is where is the hunter's threshold for trajectory?
Seems like too many guys have a threshold for a certain fps with little regard to arrow weight.
I have some friends like that..."I need to stay above 275 fps". Why? What is magic about the 275 threshold?
Now, there are (proven by Ashby) magic numbers when it comes to TAW and FOC.

 

[Lowg08]

these are my numbers in comparison to a major article and testing. Kinda makes me think something is off in somebodies testing. My numbers say I’m good for the toughest game with 388 TAW 60# DW 30.5 DL

 

[Lowg08]

I can’t get the link shared for some reason

blog.gritroutdoors.com - killer arrows

it gets into KE and momentum.

 

[Weldabeast]

The dik dik bow and corresponding arrows RF set up was good for groundhogs, rabbits, and armadillos only....except it killed big pigs too

 

[Horn]

Understanding Kinetic Energy and Momentum in Arrows

Dive into the physics of archery. Understand the role of kinetic energy and momentum in choosing the right arrow for hunting.

blog.gritroutdoors.com

Link for @Lowg08. I appreciated the article

There's a pretty well known member who advocates for 250 fps, and with reason. I personally like his reasoning. All I'm getting at is that there are reasons to consider fps, although that reason is really as a metric to look at trajectory.

I'll just ask @Weldabeast. Can you give me a real brief summary of the dik dik stuff? I'm not really into YouTube but I'll check it out if that's a big ask

 

[Lowg08]

Thanks. It’s a giant rabbit hole to jump down. I don’t know. A friend of mine has been over here for nearly 2 hours and he has bow hunted only for 23+ Years. Killed allot deer. Big body Midwest deer little mtn deer. Heavy arrows light arrows moderate arrows lol. He shoot’s 570. He likes it. Especially with a mechanical. It’s like your drawers. It’s up to you

 

[Weldabeast]

Understanding Kinetic Energy and Momentum in Arrows

Dive into the physics of archery. Understand the role of kinetic energy and momentum in choosing the right arrow for hunting.

blog.gritroutdoors.com

Link for @Lowg08. I appreciated the article

There's a pretty well known member who advocates for 250 fps, and with reason. I personally like his reasoning. All I'm getting at is that there are reasons to consider fps, although that reason is really as a metric to look at trajectory.

I'll just ask @Weldabeast. Can you give me a real brief summary of the dik dik stuff? I'm not really into YouTube but I'll check it out if that's a big ask

A childs bow. 40ish draw weight. He input the specs into the calculator and it said it was good for small game. Granted the arrows were maybe a little much for most peeps at over a thousand grains the little bow was having no problems killing pigs

 

[Lowg08]

A childs bow. 40ish draw weight. He input the specs into the calculator and it said it was good for small game. Granted the arrows were maybe a little much for most peeps at over a thousand grains the little bow was having no problems killing pigs

I just tried to watch that ranch fairy video. At 2:21 seconds I was already wanting to throat chop this dude. At 3:19 I turned him off. Man he is annoying as heck. Maybe he has some good science or whatever but his personality turns me off

 

[Weldabeast]

I just tried to watch that ranch fairy video. At 2:21 seconds I was already wanting to throat chop this dude. At 3:19 I turned him off. Man he is annoying as heck. Maybe he has some good science or whatever but his personality turns me off

Yeah.....and that's kinda why this thread is here and so long. Peeps either like the sarcasm or they don't but there is stuff to learn regardless if u like or not

 

[Horn]

I like your take Weldabeast. I can't say i love RF, but i think he's doing good work/putting good info out, or at least giving an honest attempt based on his position. I like it, I'm going fairly heavy, with higher FOC. Just not into the utube for whatever reason. I'd read a book or several long articles, it just clicks better with me.

- this is certainly a side note. I tried for a good hour to watch JRB tie a bull hitch in whatever variation he was showing via a video. I was flustered, it seemed so simple. I went and got one of my books, looked it up. 5 minutes and I'm track ready to move forward. Different strokes for different folks I guess.