Who the heck is making Amsteel tethers and Amsteel prussic combos and selling them on FB???

[always89y]

So, this thread has forced me to dig a bit deeper into DYNEEMA (Amsteel is dyneema, with a Samson proprietary coating). We all know the strength properties, and that the risk lies first in our preparation of its application (splices, knots, etc.) and then in its melting point. As mentioned before, it needs to be realized that Dyneema should not be used in an application that is frequently adjusted under load. But my research is still telling me that using it in a fixed or semi fixed application (dog bones, continuous loops and, yes, semi fixed friction knots ( prussiks that are used to position a piece of gear, like a carabiner, but not intended to adjust under load). In fact, I might argue that its properties might be better suited for this application than static rope, due to its tendency to compress and bite. Its a bitch to break loose once its set.

I ASSUME that the manufacturers CANNOT recommend this product for climbing because there is to much opportunity for human error. Someone fails to set their amsteel friction hitch, lawsuit...someone uses it with a prussik tender for frequent adjustments.. lawsuit. Someone fails to properly bury, or brummel...lawsuit.

Turns out, Dyneema is frequently used in climbing and arborist applications in the form of slings. Same stuff, just flat. Same breaking strengths, some melting points. That is why those using it use it in fixed applications.

 

[Nutterbuster]

I would be curious if we have any lawyers if there is any precedent to sue someone for an injury resulting from bad DIY advice. I always wondered about that and it made me hesitant to share stuff I do.

If there was, they'd probably all quit chasing ambulances and just scroll through the internet all day. Everything's in writing, so building a case would be easy-peasy!

 

[iamcorey]

If there was, they'd probably all quit chasing ambulances and just scroll through the internet all day. Everything's in writing, so building a case would be easy-peasy!

Alexander Shunnarah would save a ton on billboard rent.

 

[Vtbow]

So, this thread has forced me to dig a bit deeper into DYNEEMA (Amsteel is dyneema, with a Samson proprietary coating). We all know the strength properties, and that the risk lies first in our preparation of its application (splices, knots, etc.) and then in its melting point. As mentioned before, it needs to be realized that Dyneema should not be used in an application that is frequently adjusted under load. But my research is still telling me that using it in a fixed or semi fixed application (dog bones, continuous loops and, yes, semi fixed friction knots ( prussiks that are used to position a piece of gear, like a carabiner, but not intended to adjust under load). In fact, I might argue that its properties might be better suited for this application than static rope, due to its tendency to compress and bite. Its a bitch to break loose once its set.

I ASSUME that the manufacturers CANNOT recommend this product for climbing because there is to much opportunity for human error. Someone fails to set their amsteel friction hitch, lawsuit...someone uses it with a prussik tender for frequent adjustments.. lawsuit. Someone fails to properly bury, or brummel...lawsuit.

Turns out, Dyneema is frequently used in climbing and arborist applications in the form of slings. Same stuff, just flat. Same breaking strengths, some melting points. That is why those using it use it in fixed applications.

Check out post 36 here if you want some other interesting information. The link forr the Samson manual is also there and they cover A LOT of specs and info and anyone using Amsteel should read it and understand it in my opinion: https://saddlehunter.com/community/...ting-equipment-issue.12502/page-2#post-185670

 

[pesqimon]

Here is a bit more nuanced comparison between nylon and dyneema slings. I can imagine the properties associated with a dyneema sling to carry over to amsteel bridges and tethers. So I will stick with rope and webbing.

Nylon or Dyneema Climbing Slings? Which One Should You Get? - VDiff

Should you buy nylon or dyneema climbing slings? Dyneema slings are lighter, nylon climbing slings are more durable. Consider the following factors:

www.vdiffclimbing.com

.

Now that I am on the Oplux/RescTech bandwagon I understand even less the desire to take a chance with Amsteel bridges and tethers.

 

[dlist777]

My first thought was: why do this to save a few ounces when the manufacturer specifically recommends against it? Then I remembered my beast sticks with amsteel daisy chains on them instead of the buckles that come with them. Man...its hard to know where to draw the line. I wouldn't do this...I think my bridge is awfully light....I don't need to lighten it more but that's just me.

I wish there were some non-profit org that could actually give us unbiased and scientific conclusions on our various modifications as saddlehunters...I hate relying on conclusions from people with a vested interest........not saying they would intentionally do something wrong, but bias can creep up on you....

 

[always89y]

Check out post 36 here if you want some other interesting information. The link forr the Samson manual is also there and they cover A LOT of specs and info and anyone using Amsteel should read it and understand it in my opinion: https://saddlehunter.com/community/...ting-equipment-issue.12502/page-2#post-185670

Im going to spend some time absorbing this. Good info!

 

[mattsteg]

Alexander Shunnarah would save a ton on billboard rent.

I dunno, Morris Bart might steal his lunch.

 

[always89y]

One thing I do want to make clear concerning my responses to this post, and as I read back through them, I realize I did not state this.
Climbing ropes are safer than Dyneema. There is no arguing that point. My point is, Dyneema is safe enough for me and my application. I dont drive a volvo, but the Kia Sadona is safe enough. I dont wear steel toes because composite are safe enough, for me.

Like @Vtbow stated, you have to do your own homework and figure out steps you are going to take to mitigate the inherent risks of climbing and hanging from a tree.

 

[CooterBrown]

My first thought was: why do this to save a few ounces when the manufacturer specifically recommends against it? Then I remembered my beast sticks with amsteel daisy chains on them instead of the buckles that come with them. Man...its hard to know where to draw the line. I wouldn't do this...I think my bridge is awfully light....I don't need to lighten it more but that's just me.

I wish there were some non-profit org that could actually give us unbiased and scientific conclusions on our various modifications as saddlehunters...I hate relying on conclusions from people with a vested interest........not saying they would intentionally do something wrong, but bias can creep up on you....

The only problem with unbiased scientific conclusions is they can be manipulated easily with money!!!!!!!!!!ex. TMA

 

[dlist777]

The only problem with unbiased scientific conclusions is they can be manipulated easily with money!!!!!!!!!!ex. TMA

Yeah...its a pipe dream....gotta do your own analysis and make your own decisions. The info is all there if you'll spend the time and dig.

 

[kyler1945]

The only problem with unbiased scientific conclusions is they can be manipulated easily with money!!!!!!!!!!ex. TMA

The problem is not that scientific findings can be biased. They are biased. Always. This is the fundamental thing folks get wrong about science. And it’s because our brains just want the easy answer. Just tell me yes or no don’t give me any nonsense or nuance.

science is not absolutes or certainties. Science is making a prediction, testing it, publishing the results for folks to criticize or use the information. A scientific conclusion is not a fact, Per se. it’s just the latest stopping point in proving the prediction right or wrong. It’s a continual process.

fortunately for us, the science on climbing gear is pretty mature. There’s lots of information to draw from and it’s readily available.

the problem isn’t money driving results. The problem is our pea brains not being able to interpret those results properly. It takes effort. And time.

 

[DanielB89]

I'm here because I've replaced the bridge on my mantis with a secondary 11mm spliced lineman's rope girth hitched on one side with a prusik on the other and it worked great, (never adjusted under any load but i do adjust longer when im sitting shorter when im leaning) Just purchased a new saddle and ordered the cruzr adjustable Amsteel bridge. Have not installed it yet. This conversation is making me rethink the install even with it being a continuous spliced loop.

So, this thread has forced me to dig a bit deeper into DYNEEMA (Amsteel is dyneema, with a Samson proprietary coating). We all know the strength properties, and that the risk lies first in our preparation of its application (splices, knots, etc.) and then in its melting point. As mentioned before, it needs to be realized that Dyneema should not be used in an application that is frequently adjusted under load. But my research is still telling me that using it in a fixed or semi fixed application (dog bones, continuous loops and, yes, semi fixed friction knots ( prussiks that are used to position a piece of gear, like a carabiner, but not intended to adjust under load). In fact, I might argue that its properties might be better suited for this application than static rope, due to its tendency to compress and bite. Its a bitch to break loose once its set.

I ASSUME that the manufacturers CANNOT recommend this product for climbing because there is to much opportunity for human error. Someone fails to set their amsteel friction hitch, lawsuit...someone uses it with a prussik tender for frequent adjustments.. lawsuit. Someone fails to properly bury, or brummel...lawsuit.

Turns out, Dyneema is frequently used in climbing and arborist applications in the form of slings. Same stuff, just flat. Same breaking strengths, some melting points. That is why those using it use it in fixed applications.

This place is the king of using materials outside of their intended purpose. Sit drag? RCH? Webbing? I remember reading a manufacturers label warning one time on a saddle that said, "intended for ground use only". Isn't this whole game of writing it's intentions to protect yourself from a potential lawsuit?

I agree totally with @always89y on his comment about "safe enough", which sounds like something terrible to say when were talking about our life, but I do believe it's very applicable here. We all make personal decisions to trust our equipment, even if that trust is based solely on our own opinion with no testing.

If you've ever used the adjustable amsteel bridge on the phantom you're going to see really quick that it is TERRIBLE to have to adjust. I don't believe there is a chance in the world of the prussic(continuous loop - within intended use) sliding under load. I can't get mine to move when it's not under load. I have to loosen each wrap individually to get it to move and then it still doesn't slide much.

In my "safe enough" mode I accept that amsteel has an incredibly high breaking strength and in my opinion, I am in no way in violation of it's intended use. Each man must decide that for himself, though.

 

[TNbowhunter]

I would be curious if we have any lawyers if there is any precedent to sue someone for an injury resulting from bad DIY advice. I always wondered about that and it made me hesitant to share stuff I do.

Lawyer here. I have a hard time imagining someone bringing a successful lawsuit over bad DIY advice given on an online forum by an individual (not a company--that's likely a different analysis). Note that I said "bringing a successful lawsuit" instead of "suing" because people sue other people over meritless stuff all the time.
It's no guarantee, but including a disclaimer of some sort (e.g., "There is substantial risk involved with these methods, and I do not advise using them without proper training and safety equipment. I am simply sharing how I do it; you should evaluate the risks for yourself before attempting anything shown/described above and should follow all manufacturers' safety recommendations.") can generally offer pretty good protection because that eliminates the argument that you guaranteed or promised safety or anything like that. In other words, it would probably be considered unreasonable for someone to say they innocently/unknowingly relied on your advice to their detriment when you clearly told them: "Don't rely on my advice; it could be to your detriment." Haha
Disclaimer: I'm not giving anyone legal advice here--just sharing my own thoughts and perspective. (See? I practice what I preach when it comes to disclaimers!)

 

[High8]

This has me a bit concerned now, I am extremely new and green to saddle hunting, And my set up has amsteal everywhere. My Phantom obviously has the adjustable bridge, my Hawk Helium sticks have amsteal daisy chains, and my sticks have amsteal aiders. Are you guys saying that this is not safe? Like some have said, I have read how great and strong amsteal is.

 

[PEEJAY]

"If you've ever used the adjustable amsteel bridge on the phantom you're going to see really quick that it is TERRIBLE to have to adjust. I don't believe there is a chance in the world of the prussic(continuous loop - within intended use) sliding under load. I can't get mine to move when it's not under load. I have to loosen each wrap individually to get it to move and then it still doesn't slide much. "

I am right there with you on this! i bought a used kestrel with an adjustable amsteel bridge on it and it is an absolute PITA to try and adjust. In my opinion, after a few hunts and the knot really setting in tight, its probably easier/quicker to frickin resplice a fixed bridge haha. Im not really following you on the Webbing though. seems legit to me. thats what all harnesses are made of. as long as its climb rated wouldnt that serve as its intended purpose

 

[PEEJAY]

This has me a bit concerned now, I am extremely new and green to saddle hunting, And my set up has amsteal everywhere. My Phantom obviously has the adjustable bridge, my Hawk Helium sticks have amsteal daisy chains, and my sticks have amsteal aiders. Are you guys saying that this is not safe? Like some have said, I have read how great and strong amsteal is.
View attachment 36962

You're ok dude. just stay tethered with minimal slack. i cant see too much going wrong if you stay tethered. I dont like climbing with 7/64 just cuz it weirds me out haha but its plenty strong. if you are only using a LB than yea...might be a little more risky (i always tether in after i leave the ground, only switch to LB when i need to go over a branch). but its pretty accepted practice now and i have yet to hear any horror stories about peoples amsteel daisy chain snappin. maybe they just didnt live to tell the story tho!

 

[dlist777]

This has me a bit concerned now, I am extremely new and green to saddle hunting, And my set up has amsteal everywhere. My Phantom obviously has the adjustable bridge, my Hawk Helium sticks have amsteal daisy chains, and my sticks have amsteal aiders. Are you guys saying that this is not safe? Like some have said, I have read how great and strong amsteal is.
View attachment 36962

I agree with @PEEJAY. I use 1/8 amsteel vs. 7/64 but 7/64 is strong enough. The issue here that is getting discussed is the combination of a friction hitch on amsteel.

The one thing I'll point out with any daisy chain (amsteel or webbing) vs. cam buckles on sticks, it makes it more susceptible to being knocked off the tree (when unweighted) from the bottom. I once knocked my 4th stick off the tree and watched it fall down to stick #3 when I raised my bow and hit it from the bottom. I was safely on my ROS tethered in. It was a bit of an adventure getting down to stick #3.

Just makes sure you have a way down if you find yourself hanging from your tether w/o a stick below you.....this is not an amsteel specific issue....

 

[iamcorey]

This has me a bit concerned now, I am extremely new and green to saddle hunting, And my set up has amsteal everywhere. My Phantom obviously has the adjustable bridge, my Hawk Helium sticks have amsteal daisy chains, and my sticks have amsteal aiders. Are you guys saying that this is not safe? Like some have said, I have read how great and strong amsteal is.
View attachment 36962

The strength is fine on the sticks. It’s the lack of stick setting that is the problem. My experience is all is well on the way up since you are putting weight on it. The way down is the issue. After you take weight off, if not biting properly, the standoffs just rest against the tree. When you put weight on the step from above all kinds of craziness ensues and not the good kind.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[DanielB89]

Im not really following you on the Webbing though. seems legit to me. thats what all harnesses are made of. as long as its climb rated wouldnt that serve as its intended purpose

My point of that is the concept of it being weight rated and fully capable of handling the weight, it's the concept of it not being rated as a bridge. It's not what it is stated, it's what is not stated. (it's a very vague point at best, but I believe it still applies). As strong as webbing is, amsteel is WAY WAY stronger and I don't see how the use of amsteel as a bridge is directly violating it's intended purpose.