Thoughts on My First Year "Trophy Hunting"

[PEEJAY]

Another bonus question. Can the people who say big bucks are "different animals" than "does and young bucks" describe exactly what makes them so different, without leaning on personal or secondhand anecdotes? Is there an independently published, peer reviewed scholarly or scientific source that documents specific and measurable differences in "huntability" of deer based on age and sex?

i cant remember where the study was published...i think michigan state or something. but they had trackers on the summbiches and the older bucks would leave their core area's a week before gun season started then move back in after. younger dudes hung around. i was floored. you could say it was hunters scouting before season opener and that might be true, but they didnt see the same results for bow season. i dont think they're different animals at all. just a little wiser. they learn through experiences over the years and adapt. most living creatures act like this. i dont view bucks any differently.

 

[swampdonkey]

Hunting starts in 3 days in WI. Ill be back in Jan to check this thread and see the 4 Trophy Whitetails Nuts posted here. They better be studs after all this jibber jabber and "research".

 

[Jtaylor]

i cant remember where the study was published...i think michigan state or something. but they had trackers on the summbiches and the older bucks would leave their core area's a week before gun season started then move back in after. younger dudes hung around. i was floored. you could say it was hunters scouting before season opener and that might be true, but they didnt see the same results for bow season. i dont think they're different animals at all. just a little wiser. they learn through experiences over the years and adapt. most living creatures act like this. i dont view bucks any differently.

I've seen this too! One of us has to try to dig it up somewhere.
Here's one between older and younger bucks in Delaware. I'm sure we could dig up the scholarly publication if needed. Sorry it's a little dated, the deer may have changed behaviors since then.

What Scientists Learned that Changed How They Hunt Mature Bucks | National Deer Association

www.deerassociation.com

Scroll down to "Learning the hard way" to get the gist if ya don't want to read the whole article.

 

[LAKY]

On properties where intensive deer habitat improvement has been implemented and/or better quality soils are present, the average mature buck should be better than 120”. If we are only talking about WMA deer, the average score for 5+ year old bucks will likely be 110-115” ( 99-103 for 4.5yo) in most physiographic regions of Alabama.

I'm glad he pointed out the reason for the better scores was HABITAT.

 

[BackSpasm]

I've seen this too! One of us has to try to dig it up somewhere.
Here's one between older and younger bucks in Delaware. I'm sure we could dig up the scholarly publication if needed. Sorry it's a little dated, the deer may have changed behaviors since then.

What Scientists Learned that Changed How They Hunt Mature Bucks | National Deer Association

www.deerassociation.com

Scroll down to "Learning the hard way" to get the gist if ya don't want to read the whole article.

We went through this study here:

Mature Buck Behavior Data (poking the Nutter)

Certain unnamed trouble makers around these parts have been recently alleging that mature deer are basically the same as the rest of them, just more rare. I came across these articles today and thought they were worth sharing. I am sure there is more GPS data out there from the primary...

saddlehunter.com

I found it interesting too!

 

[Nutterbuster]

I've seen this too! One of us has to try to dig it up somewhere.
Here's one between older and younger bucks in Delaware. I'm sure we could dig up the scholarly publication if needed. Sorry it's a little dated, the deer may have changed behaviors since then.

What Scientists Learned that Changed How They Hunt Mature Bucks | National Deer Association

www.deerassociation.com

Scroll down to "Learning the hard way" to get the gist if ya don't want to read the whole article.

I take issue with this part of that article:

Maybe old bucks use wetlands more frequently simply because all the young bucks that didn’t use those areas never became old bucks! If they are truly learning though, which seems likely, those lessons must be occurring the hard way. Bucks are much more solitary than does during the fall, and there is no dominant, wise mentor to show a young buck the ropes like the matriarchs in the doe groups. A buck shifting the way he uses the landscape as he grows older is almost certainly the result of one too many close calls or bad experiences.

The words in bold are a complete leap. We went from doing good science (putting collars on deer and just observing their movements...pretty objective) to bad (assuming something was taking place because it "seems likely") very quickly. We went from, "deer do a thing," to, "it seems likely they do a thing because x," to, "they do a thing because x, and it's because y." Big jumps there.

If they could say, "Buck #007 walked a certain route through the woods up until October 15 during his 4th hunting season, on which day we noticed him relocate rapidly to a nearby swamp and stay there several days, after which he never used that route again and instead took the long way round through the swamp..." then that would appear to be clear cut evidence of learning taking place. As it is, nothing in the article indicates that their study found any evidence that old bucks in wetlands was due to anything more than what they speculated in the first sentence, "the young bucks that didn't use those areas never became old bucks."

2nd issue which I discussed last time this article was brought up is why do only the old bucks learn? Why do old does not move to the swamps? Are they not getting shot at in the study area? I'm going to assume that's the case, because if they're being shot at they should be learning too. Sex difference should not factor in otherwise. Maybe it's a regional thing, because in my state we have a doe-a-day limit (used to be 2) from October til February. I've educated WAY more does by way of a little bloodletting or close haircut than bucks. Maybe that's why I observe just as many or more spooky does.

This paragraph also stands out to me:

The first observation that stood out was just how much difference there was between each individual, no matter if it was a buck, doe, mature or immature deer. Hunters spend countless hours watching videos, listening to podcasts, and reading magazine articles like this one to better puzzle out why deer do the things they do. While an understanding of general patterns can certainly give you a valuable advantage in the deer woods, it’s important to remember the deer don’t decide how to behave by watching a video, listening to a podcast, or reading a magazine. For instance, while the deer in our study generally avoided roads, many individuals actually selected for areas closer to roads, including a few of our mature bucks. They were not supposed to do that according to what we know about deer behavior, but they did it anyway. Maybe they were using more urban areas as a strategy to escape hunting pressure, or maybe they just didn’t know any better. Whatever the reason, we saw the same variability in selection between individual deer for all cover types we measured, and in all different age and sex classes.

Basically, deer can be random. They didn't really quantify how random. But apparently, even amongst smart-ole-bucks, there are some who don't do what they're supposed to do. I've been saying this for a while. I've killed plenty of deer that were not "playing by the rules" and moving in ways that advocates of cyber scouting say they should. Seems to water down any theory that says mature bucks consistently as a group learn better hunter avoidance strategies as they age.

I like the article. I'd love to see more of the data they acquired doing the study. I've been on a kick watching videos the Southern Outdoorsmen have made of radio collar bucks getting tracked on aerials for months at a time. Radio collar studies are really interesting to me. I'm kinda interested and kinda skeptical about the promised "Athena" phase of Spartan Forge, which is supposed to eventually be able to project deer movements across a landscape based on data from these studies cross-referenced with historic weather data. But the questions asked and answered are:

How much variation was there between individual deer in the way they used the landscape?

How much did their age class and sex influence that variation?

How did their use of the landscape affect their chances of surviving the hunting season?

The 2nd question gets an answer that does contradict something I remember saying earlier, and @BackSpasm called me on it. It shows at least some big bucks behaving differently (remember, some individuals are apparently spazzy) from younger ones. It doesn't PROVE that this is due to learning (the main thing I have an issue with people assuming) it just ASSUMES it.

So I'll retreat slightly on my original position.

In my opinion, the differences in deer behavior just aren't worth obsessing over when you look at all the other variables. They all feed, breed, and hide. Habitat and hunting regulations have HUGE impacts on herd structure and hunter success capacity. More, I believe, than anything else by a wide margin. Individual deer do random things that make translating broad theories to the real world difficult. Many if not most hunters who want to shoot "trophy" bucks are trying to squeeze blood from a turnip (look at the map and spreadsheets), and articles on buck behavior and "advanced strategies" are for the most part of questionable value. An emphasis on basics (quality habitat; low pressure; predicting deer travel based on feed, breed, hide) isn't sexy but would improve most people's hunting.

Anywho. I just dropped $450 on an out-of-state license to put money where my mouth is. I'm definitely not trying to sell folks a line. I think one third of the forum thinks I'm a cocky little dipshine who needs humbling, one third thinks I'm preaching to the choir or fighting a strawman, and maybe one third is nodding along and will shave some years off their learning curve.

 

[rhagenw]

160 bucks for a Wisconsin tag! I’ll pitch 20 bucks in! Let’s see ya get your dumb trophy buck!

 

[mattsteg]

160 bucks for a Wisconsin tag! I’ll pitch 20 bucks in! Let’s see ya get your dumb trophy buck!

80 bucks. I assume he hasn't hinted wisconsin previously so he gets a tag at half price.

 

[rhagenw]

80 bucks. I assume he hasn't hinted wisconsin previously so he gets a tag at half price.

I’ll make it 40 on my part...any one else? Lol I don’t know yours but my state moto is Show Me...should we open a Go Fund account?

 

[Jtaylor]

We went through this study here:

Mature Buck Behavior Data (poking the Nutter)

Certain unnamed trouble makers around these parts have been recently alleging that mature deer are basically the same as the rest of them, just more rare. I came across these articles today and thought they were worth sharing. I am sure there is more GPS data out there from the primary...

saddlehunter.com

I found it interesting too!

Sorry! I'm behind the times!

Basically, deer can be random. They didn't really quantify how random. But apparently, even amongst smart-ole-bucks, there are some who don't do what they're supposed to do. I've been saying this for a while. I've killed plenty of deer that were not "playing by the rules" and moving in ways that advocates of cyber scouting say they should. Seems to water down any theory that says mature bucks consistently as a group learn better hunter avoidance strategies as they age.

I'd agree with the watered down theory and deer are individuals and behave differently from deer to deer.
Without putting words into your mouth, you're basically saying deer are born or learn all the survival instincts they'll ever get while juveniles? The big bucks are simply getting lucky and not getting killed which allows them to grow old?
It's an interesting theory and somewhat comparable to us learning not to touch a hot stove or teaching our dogs not to crap in the house. Hmmmm....

They all feed, breed, and hide. Habitat and hunting regulations have HUGE impacts on herd structure and hunter success capacity. More, I believe, than anything else by a wide margin.

You can't forget other mortality issues too like EHD/diseases, winter kills, etc.

 

[Nutterbuster]

Without putting words into your mouth, you're basically saying deer are born or learn all the survival instincts they'll ever get while juveniles? The big bucks are simply getting lucky and not getting killed which allows them to grow old?

Basically, yes. I think that deer generally are not great at learning new tricks. I think I've mentioned before that it took us about a year to teach deer that they could eat sweet potatoes. They sat there for months eating corn and stepping over the taters. First truckload rotted on the ground. So did the second. We eventually cut them up and finally they put 2 and 2 together. But it took an astonishingly long time.

I think what you've said is the happy middle ground in the conversation. There are some observable differences in deer behavior. You notice more big bucks in security cover because the ones who don't use it never get old. But they aren't sitting there chewing their cud and checking the wind and listening to truck doors slam in the distance and thinking about how he's going to use wind and terrain to avoid where he thinks that hunter is going.

The more I think about the Delaware study, the more I realize I have regional bias. No observable differences between young vs old does astounds me. Probably because we have a long season and a doe-a-day limit here. We have had no antler restrictions until very recently. I have definitely observed PLENTY of does using security cover and edge habitat. We are hunting all our deer. I forget sometimes that some states are not. If you start culling deer who use areas hunters cover on year one, it is going to equalize the differences between age/sex classes. If you have an area with limited doe tags and antler restrictions, there's no selection pressure applied until males hit the age where their antlers hit the minimums. Then, BOOM, all of the sudden the bucks are only living in the places where hunters aren't going. And does keep rocking on doing what they're doing.

Without trying to insult the midwestern guys any more than I probably have, that's probably why most southern hunters I know do really well when they go out of state. And why THP has such a hard time in Mississippi and Alabama. In addition to one area being a more target rich environment (with exponentially more record bucks), one group is more used to hunting pressured deer because every deer in the woods is a pressured deer here. Even if I'm just on a doe hunt, I'm not going to hit a public tract and hunt a food plot or the edge of a private corn field or a big, nice oak flat. Every Bay Minette High punk with a lifted ****-box is hunting it and shooting the first thing that walks out.

We have a lot of deer so it's not terrible. Whenever I start thinking about regional differences I always end up feeling mighty sorry for the Northeastern crew.

 

[swampdonkey]

I find the assumption being made that if you hunt WI you’re automatically killing giant Bucks because you know, they’re as dumb as fawns and there are a lot of big deer in WI so everyone sitting on a bucket by a field must be killing a giant every other year.

My Father in Laws biggest buck was an 8 pt, probably goes 85”. Not quite a stud buck even by Nuts definition.

My Dads best buck is a 9 pointer scoring 94”, also not a trophy class buck but a trophy to him.

Both of these men hunted their entire lives in WI however they hunted like almost everyone else does. They spent their time hunting field edges and hardwood ridges primarily on WI public land. So they kill the same deer as everyone else does, small immature deer.

Now, Nuts says trophy bucks are stupid and you don’t have to hunt them any differently than fawns so how come both of these men with about 100 combined seasons between them don’t have rooms full of trophy bucks but instead probably a 2-3 deer a year average (so between 2-300 deer kills total) and not one of them is a Trophy Buck as most would define it, say 125”?

Me on the other hand, i’ve got 32 seasons behind me now and hunt much differently than these two men in WI. I have killed exactly 7 Bucks that almost all would consider Trophies with the highest scoring around 160”. So i’ve bested those two men combined by a significant margin by hunting mature buck on WI public land much differently than the average WI public land hunter. Even such, i’ve only killed 7 trophy class animals in 32 years. I’ve been bested and beaten by triple that many who i just couldn’t figure out how to kill them.

I assure you, Nuts comes up to WI and hunts the public i hunt by hunting the same as all those other 2 million + public land hunters he will be humbled pretty quickly. Every guy hunting WI isn’t killing trophy bucks just because it’s WI, quite the opposite. Most are killing baby deer with a 125” or better Buck being a buck of a lifetime for them.

The majority of the P&Y or B&C deer actually entered in the books (none of mine are) were killed by a minority of hunters. The average WI public land hunter isn’t killing jammers every year just because they’re in WI.

That’s a pretty laughable assumption. Same as saying trophy deer are as easy to kill as baby deer yet almost no one hunting public even in WI manages to kill one on a consistent basis, if ever.

Alright, now back to tracking down all my gear so i’m ready Sat morning. Should have a B&C down by midday Sat, Sunday at the latest cause man those things are dumb and i’m in WI. I plan to hunt upwind of bedding so they get curious and follow my scent right in to me like that nub buck did last year to me!

 

[Jtaylor]

Now, Nuts says trophy bucks are stupid and you don’t have to hunt them any differently than fawns so how come both of these men with about 100 combined seasons between them don’t have rooms full of trophy bucks but instead probably a 2-3 deer a year average (so between 2-300 deer kills total) and not one of them is a Trophy Buck as most would define it, say 125”?

I think he's saying these bucks are just inherently different and weren't the ones that walked the field edge and got shot. The big bucks were the ones that made it by living in the areas that are "outside of the box".
They still eat, $*it, sleep, drink all the same but just do it in areas most hunters normally wouldn't think of going allowing them to get old. It's really hard to wrap your head around but I try to keep an open mind and it kinda makes sense!

 

[swampdonkey]

I think he's saying these bucks are just inherently different and weren't the ones that walked the field edge and got shot. The big bucks were the ones that made it by living in the areas that are "outside of the box".
They still eat, $*it, sleep, drink all the same but just do it in areas most hunters normally wouldn't think of going allowing them to get old. It's really hard to wrap your head around but I try to keep an open mind and it kinda makes sense!

But that’s simply not true. Every single guy running a Cam can attest to the fact these bucks feed in the exact same fields and hardwood ridges as the rest of the herd.

 

[swampdonkey]

I think he's saying these bucks are just inherently different and weren't the ones that walked the field edge and got shot. The big bucks were the ones that made it by living in the areas that are "outside of the box".
They still eat, $*it, sleep, drink all the same but just do it in areas most hunters normally wouldn't think of going allowing them to get old. It's really hard to wrap your head around but I try to keep an open mind and it kinda makes sense!

It’s ALSO true that you will NEVER see a trophy buck follow a mans scent right to the base of a guys tree out of curiosity like the nub buck did to me last year.

A mature public land buck once turned and went the other way after coming across my ground scent from where i walked in 8 hours earlier. I had several does and small bucks walk right over the same route he got nervous over and turned to go back. This buck literally spent 10 minutes scanning ahead of him and putting his nose up while doing his best to make like a statue before he decided crossing my 8 hour old ground scent was just too big a risk. And he was right because had he continued it would have taken him right be me and i’d have killed him.

I think Nuts hasn’t spent enough time watching that sort of behavior being he’s spent his time shooting the first thing he sees immediately. I let 6 deer walk passed me to get to see that Buck show me what a smart and different animal they are. I’ve seen similar things and not killed the buck doing it more times than i care to admit.

That buck was most definitely on a different level than the rest of the deer even though he was in the exact same area as the other deer and it kept him alive. Most guys killing 20 deer a year don’t spend a lot of time just observing deer, especially big bucks.

 

[Jtaylor]

But that’s simply not true. Every single guy running a Cam can attest to the fact these bucks feed in the exact same fields and hardwood ridges as the rest of the herd.

I'll preface, I'm not trying to argue just friendly discussion. That statement doesn't really help the cause since it's basically saying mature bucks are doing the same thing as the rest.

It’s ALSO true that you will NEVER see a trophy buck follow a mans scent right to the base of a guys tree out of curiosity like the nub buck did to me last year.

Perhaps its because curiosity killed the cat and that one won't even make it to a mature buck? The next guy along @Nutterbuster might not be so friendly to that little guy..

 

[swampdonkey]

That statement doesn't really help the cause since it's basically saying mature bucks are doing the same thing as the rest.

They are! They are just going about it in a much smarter way which is exactly why you have to hunt them differently to consistently kill them.

They pay attention to everything and ignore nothing that could spell their demise. Like crossing your ground scent or coming in your direction if you’re upwind of them. No mature buck will do that, a lot of younger deer will.

Those that plan on hunting trophy bucks in the same way everyone else hunts deer wont regularly kill trophy bucks they just kill average deer like everyone else.

If there was even a shred of validity in what Nuts is saying everyone would be killing trophy bucks much more regularly than they do and certainly not once in a lifetime like most WI public land hunters have done, if they ever have. He says WI has the best hunting around, talks as if trophy bucks are all over and easy to hunt, yet the average hunter in WI never even sees one.

That’s all the evidence anyone needs quote all the emails from college kids sitting in an office all day long that doesn’t change the fact most guys can’t kill trophy deer even when they are present on the property they’re hunting but they can kill average deer every single year.

 

[Nutterbuster]

As far as some hunters not killing mature bucks, that's easy. Some (most, I think) just don't care. I don't know how much I care about it. My dad doesn't give a crap. I know plenty of guys with 40+ years of "hunting experience" who just don't care about shooting deer all that much period, much less mature ones. My dad's dad has "hunted" his whole life and is perfectly happy sitting in a shooting house and only shooting a doe if somebody is going to drag it out and clean it for him. Plenty of guys like talking about deer hunting more than deer hunting. Or (5 years in an archery shop) buying gear vs shooting deer.

But in my experience hunting is a pretty easy thing to learn if you want to. Way easier to get proficient at it than most things I've taken a shine to. Biggest barriers are a place to do it, time, and unlearning the stuff your grandaddy told ya.

I'll throw this out there too. I worked in higher ed for 4 years. 3 I worked exclusively with non-traditional adult learners. Folks in their 30s-60s going back to college. As a group, they were definitely old dogs struggling with new tricks. They were smart enough as a whole, and many of them were reaching the zenith of impressive career arcs. I had retired military officers, fire chiefs, business executives, and lots of other smart folk. Most of them did not do well with new technology. I worked at an online college and most of them had terrible email skills, couldn't figure out how to open PDFs, struggled with e-books, couldn't grasp that APA/MLA standards had changed since they were in school, etc. Typical boomer meme stuff. Sometimes it felt like they were actively resisting acquiring new knowledge and skillsets. And don't even get me started about the people who call me to place orders at my current job while they're on the computer looking at what they want to order and a "buy now" button right there on the page. I don't resent anybody for this. It'll happen to me too one day.

It definitely made me think about how we lose brain plasticity with age. Made me change a few habits I had in an effort to hopefully not be the old crank who refused to use the teleporter and drove 7 hours to visit the grandkids. And it made me ask myself, if we're that bad at learning past adolescence, what are the odds a deer is learning that much? If anything, what's working for him is dying curiosity and a desire for sameness.

Another thing I noticed was that folks have a difficult time with numbers and statistics, and their ability to use those things to their advantage is further hindered by a general distrust of the agencies who publish them. Anybody tied to "the gubment" is obviously lying about something, amirite? It's unfortunate because Conservation Departments, the USDA, the COE, the USGS, the FDA, and a host of other acronyms are using taxpayer dollars to do research and since you're paying for it you can access lots of the info they dig up. We take the word of a friendly face over the information presented by an acronym. We tune out and get bored whenever numbers come up, but man oh man do we still love some campfire stories. That's why gurus and articles get more attention than DCNR harvest reports. Reading Alabama harvest reports and the QDMA annual report is like watching paint dry, but dang it if it isn't handy to know that Mississippi leads the country in percentage of bucks harvested at 3.5 years or older.

 

[mattsteg]

I feel like a ton of y'all are completely missing @Nutterbuster's point.

He's not saying old bucks act just like fawns, or that you hunt them the same. He's not saying that you just pass on a couple of fawns and next thing you know a Booner's walking out. He's not saying that you can just waltz out anywhere in WI and collect a mature buck, easy as hitting up a grocery store.

He's talking about scouting, finding areas with big buck sign, looking for the best available habitat localish to him, with low hunting pressure, spending more time traveling/scouting and less time sitting...in short doing things differently than he has been to target rarer examples of the same species. The vast majority of hunters aren't doing this.

He's postulating that deer don't get fundamentally smarter once they've made it to adulthood. They still have the same basic needs, and still use the same basic strategies and senses to meet those needs.

How much of the differences we observe in mature buck behavior are from the "smarter" ones (or ones with an overall more cautious or disciplined personality - or even ones that luck into the right territory) surviving longer, or from the dominant deer just having more ability to dictate terms and choose the best habitat? How much are from gaining relatively simple lessons due to past close scrapes?

Without e.g. years of tracking data on the same deer...it's tough to make an evidence-backed assertion of old deer becoming dramatically smarter with age. Could just be that those that have or develop those habits in their youth are the ones that get old in the first place. Maybe that difference doesn't really matter - either way you can end up with an animal that's a lot harder to kill - but a lot of the behaviors that we attribute to complex though processes...are probably a lot simpler in the mind of the deer performing them.

 

[Arrowsquirrel]

I feel like a ton of y'all are completely missing @Nutterbuster's point.

He's not saying old bucks act just like fawns, or that you hunt them the same. He's not saying that you just pass on a couple of fawns and next thing you know a Booner's walking out. He's not saying that you can just waltz out anywhere in WI and collect a mature buck, easy as hitting up a grocery store.

He's talking about scouting, finding areas with big buck sign, looking for the best available habitat localish to him, with low hunting pressure, spending more time traveling/scouting and less time sitting...in short doing things differently than he has been to target rarer examples of the same species. The vast majority of hunters aren't doing this.

He's postulating that deer don't get fundamentally smarter once they've made it to adulthood. They still have the same basic needs, and still use the same basic strategies and senses to meet those needs.

How much of the differences we observe in mature buck behavior are from the "smarter" ones (or ones with an overall more cautious or disciplined personality - or even ones that luck into the right territory) surviving longer, or from the dominant deer just having more ability to dictate terms and choose the best habitat? How much are from gaining relatively simple lessons due to past close scrapes?

Without e.g. years of tracking data on the same deer...it's tough to make an evidence-backed assertion of old deer becoming dramatically smarter with age. Could just be that those that have or develop those habits in their youth are the ones that get old in the first place. Maybe that difference doesn't really matter - either way you can end up with an animal that's a lot harder to kill - but a lot of the behaviors that we attribute to complex though processes...are probably a lot simpler in the mind of the deer performing them.

This .

I will admit I've fell victim to the super smart old deer talk some of the popular "hunting experts" have to preach to keep there popularity alive. This thread has helped me open my mind which is what I think old nutter is trying to get across.