Do you tie off your saddle to the end of your tether?

[kyler1945]

Hunting from a Tree is not a direct paid position. Arborist, yes. Rock climbing because of rescue work has people paid to do things. Insurance has driven them to have these standards and rules to follow. No one is directly paying anyone to sit in a tree and wait for animals to walk by on a 9-5 basis. So there has to be some kind of monetary value for any kind of organization to happen. All the saddle companies have to say is: Not approved for climbing or fall arrest. Now your using it for your own personal use.

I don't disagree. But folks are treating our "sport" like those institutions in the way they approach saddle hunting equipment and techniques.

 

[Fl Canopy Stalker]

I'm no expert on the topic. What I'm saying, is from my layman's point of entry - by googling, asking questions, fishing around in the data and documentation of any climbing industry that I could look at, none have allowed (if they are able to require) or recommend that a progress capture device be the only connection to the climbing rope or anchor for normal activities. There may be a type of climbing or industry that allows this. I don't know of one. If it exists, I'd like to know about it.

The point I'm making here is that my point of entry is the same as 99% of people who hunt in a tree. They're not arborists, rock climbers, industrial workers that work at heights in harnesses. And over half of the people with the same point of entry as I have, view their progress capture device as an acceptable means of connecting themselves to their tether, ALONE. And NO ONE is discussing the topic. As in, everyone assumes that this is normal, the risk inherent to this is acceptable, what that risk IS, or that someone else did this thing for them, and everything is fine.

That's my point. I'm not arguing that they should, or shouldn't. I've got my opinion. But I'm not qualified to give it. What I'm hoping to do is to change the perception of the topic, to one with a bit more skepticism, and open mindedness. Everyone just assumed this thing is the right way to do it. Because that's what people do inside those other institutions- they can make assumptions based on institutional guidance. That's cool that people view saddle hunting as an institution now. However, they'd be wise to understand it has ZERO leadership, organizing principles, no recommendations, no testing, no guidelines, nothing to point to.

I see two viable paths forward - saddle hunting merging into other institutions, or putting it's big boy pants on and becoming one on it's own. Or, people realizing that this is NOT a safe space, and you're personally responsible for not only doing things the right way, but that you're expected to determine what's right on your own without any formal guidance.

I'm hoping conversations like these push people down one of those paths.


Edit - I'm aware that there will be plenty of folks who say "Well I take responsibility for myself and I don't need no man telling me what to do!" or "They should take responsibility for themselves, not rely on someone else."

You're again missing the point. People have foundational assumptions wrong in this space, that they are then basing their risk assessment and decisions on equipment and techniques on. I'm looking to correct the underlying assumptions. Not argue over people's ownership of free will and responsibility for themselves.

I don’t disagree from the point of safety. I just know there is a difference between lead line climbing and adjustable lanyards use. Some lanyards come with two eyes. You can double them back to the selves or you can strap into your system as a back up to your prusik or mechanical, however even in the forestry pamphlet, nowhere do is say you must tie in behind the friction hitch on an adjustable lanyard. I have attached some of the information from the lanyards portions of the PDF:
1. Belt lanyards or lineman’s safety straps. Belt lanyards normally consist of a wide piece of nylon webbing with an adjustable buckle and a snap catch at both ends. Generally, these are not the best choice for tree climbing because they are awkward to adjust and come in just a few sizes.
2. Prusik lanyards. Prusik lanyards may be equipped with a snap catch at one or both ends and are adjusted by means of either a prusik knot or other friction hitch. The lanyards come in a variety of sizes and styles that meet almost every climber’s needs. Some styles may be awkward to adjust, but most adjust quickly and easily. The addition of a slack-tending micro pulley to the adjustment system increases ease of use significantly. The versatility of this lanyard has made it the preferred “all purpose” lanyard for tree climbing. Never use these lanyards for primary support when cutting, trimming, or pruning trees because of the possibility that the lanyard might be cut.
3. Mechanical adjuster lanyards. Mechanical adjuster lanyards come with a snap catch at one end and a mechanical adjuster that can be moved along the lanyard and attached to the climber’s belt or harness. These rope or cable steel-core lanyards are the easiest to adjust as the adjustment takes place at the climber’s hip D-ring. Safety measures include placing an end splice or knot at the end of the rope to prevent the adjuster from going off the end and keeping the adjuster cam cleared of twigs and leaves.
—- I am not arguing or anything I am only pointing out the using a friction knot on a lanyard (or a mechanical) and then tying a double overhand stopper knot is perfectly acceptable in most instances. Now as the above guy mentioned, some companies may require it done that way but it is not “institutionally standardized” across the board, at least not that I can find

 

[kyler1945]

I don’t disagree from the point of safety. I just know there is a difference between lead line climbing and adjustable lanyards use. Some lanyards come with two eyes. You can double them back to the selves or you can strap into your system as a back up to your prusik or mechanical, however even in the forestry pamphlet, nowhere do is say you must tie in behind the friction hitch on an adjustable lanyard. I have attached some of the information from the lanyards portions of the PDF:
1. Belt lanyards or lineman’s safety straps. Belt lanyards normally consist of a wide piece of nylon webbing with an adjustable buckle and a snap catch at both ends. Generally, these are not the best choice for tree climbing because they are awkward to adjust and come in just a few sizes.
2. Prusik lanyards. Prusik lanyards may be equipped with a snap catch at one or both ends and are adjusted by means of either a prusik knot or other friction hitch. The lanyards come in a variety of sizes and styles that meet almost every climber’s needs. Some styles may be awkward to adjust, but most adjust quickly and easily. The addition of a slack-tending micro pulley to the adjustment system increases ease of use significantly. The versatility of this lanyard has made it the preferred “all purpose” lanyard for tree climbing. Never use these lanyards for primary support when cutting, trimming, or pruning trees because of the possibility that the lanyard might be cut.
3. Mechanical adjuster lanyards. Mechanical adjuster lanyards come with a snap catch at one end and a mechanical adjuster that can be moved along the lanyard and attached to the climber’s belt or harness. These rope or cable steel-core lanyards are the easiest to adjust as the adjustment takes place at the climber’s hip D-ring. Safety measures include placing an end splice or knot at the end of the rope to prevent the adjuster from going off the end and keeping the adjuster cam cleared of twigs and leaves.
—- I am not arguing or anything I am only pointing out the using a friction knot on a lanyard (or a mechanical) and then tying a double overhand stopper knot is perfectly acceptable in most instances. Now as the above guy mentioned, some companies may require it done that way but it is not “institutionally standardized” across the board, at least not that I can find

Got it.

This is some good information I was looking for. So they are saying that the friction or mechanical connection is acceptable, so long as there's a stopper tied behind it? The idea being that if the hitch or device has an acceptable load rating, and the knot below it prevents it from moving, they're happy with the setup.

 

[Fl Canopy Stalker]

Hunting from a Tree is not a direct paid position. Arborist, yes. Rock climbing because of rescue work has people paid to do things. Insurance has driven them to have these standards and rules to follow. No one is directly paying anyone to sit in a tree and wait for animals to walk by on a 9-5 basis. So there has to be some kind of monetary value for any kind of organization to happen. All the saddle companies have to say is: Not approved for climbing or fall arrest. Now your using it for your own personal use.

And there is absolutely a difference. By the way per the most recently updated climbing guide from the US forestry department, when using an adjustable lanyard as a positioning tool instead of a climbing line, there is no written rule that states a back up tie in must be used. I have also been looking in OSHA/ANSI and so far I am unable to find a written rule that says that you must do it. I am not saying anyone is wrong, I am simply stating I am unable to locate an industry standard stating it’s necessary. However a stopper knot is highly encouraged. Because the most likely malfunction of a properly tied friction hitch is sliding off the end of the rope or lanyard.

 

[Fl Canopy Stalker]

I don't disagree. But folks are treating our "sport" like those institutions in the way they approach saddle hunting equipment and techniques.

I agree 100%, many are. To those people, I again say none of us should be using a mechanical at all because we aren’t “trained” or use any rope under 10 mm or prusik under 8mm if we feel that we must use arbor culture as our safety standard. Those are written rules

 

[Fl Canopy Stalker]

Got it.

This is some good information I was looking for. So they are saying that the friction or mechanical connection is acceptable, so long as there's a stopper tied behind it? The idea being that if the hitch or device has an acceptable load rating, and the knot below it prevents it from moving, they're happy with the setup.

You are correct again sir

 

[MattMan81]

Everyone needs to understand that ultimately they are responsible for there safety out there. Big brother is not gonna tell you what to do, or how to do it or your fired.
It's the same as a hang on, or even just walking through the woods with a weapon. I posted a while ago the story about the guy who slipped and fell, and a Broadhead came out of his quiver and sliced his arm. He almost bled to death.
I read all this and take notes. If I read something I can do to improve my set up they do in the professional industry that makes sense and makes things safer. I will consider it. But there is no replacement for checking your gear, taking your time, and evaluating what your doing. Do those 3 things, and your probably safer hunting, than driving down the road to work or your hunting spot. IMO.

 

[kyler1945]

Everyone needs to understand that ultimately they are responsible for there safety out there. Big brother is not gonna tell you what to do, or how to do it or your fired.
It's the same as a hang on, or even just walking through the woods with a weapon. I posted a while ago the story about the guy who slipped and fell, and a Broadhead came out of his quiver and sliced his arm. He almost bled to death.
I read all this and take notes. If I read something I can do to improve my set up they do in the professional industry that makes sense and makes things safer. I will consider it. But there is no replacement for checking your gear, taking your time, and evaluating what your doing. Do those 3 things, and your probably safer hunting, than driving down the road to work or your hunting spot. IMO.

Once again, this isn't a discussion about personal responsibility.

This is a discussion about incorrect assumptions, that normal/well meaning/typically responsible folks make, that are upstream from their responsibility to act accordingly.

Telling people it's their responsibility doesn't fix the underlying issue we are discussing here. It just distracts from the point I'm trying to make.

 

[Plebe]

Just tell me what to do already...and make sure it's the right way to do it...

 

[MattMan81]

Once again, this isn't a discussion about personal responsibility.

This is a discussion about incorrect assumptions, that normal/well meaning/typically responsible folks make, that are upstream from their responsibility to act accordingly.

Telling people it's their responsibility doesn't fix the underlying issue we are discussing here. It just distracts from the point I'm trying to make.

Then I'm confused. Everyone says there not an expert. Or will not tell anyone how to use there system for fear on liability. I guess I will just stick with the bucket hunting thread.

 

[LAKY]

When the TMA approves the first saddle is when we'll start to see standards. Until then, it's every man for himself. But, yes, people coming into saddle hunting think they can go buy a mass produced saddle and call it ok. They're thinking this is all tested and has to be safe, and I'll get my kid one for Christmas.

 

[kyler1945]

Then I'm confused. Everyone says there not an expert. Or will not tell anyone how to use there system for fear on liability. I guess I will just stick with the bucket hunting thread.

The "personal responsibility" argument for everything has some holes in it. I agree with pieces and parts of it. Like everything else, it isn't black and white.

Set aside for a minute that you think everyone should pull themselves up by their boot straps, get a job, own a home, cut their neighbors grass when he's out of town, and only drink three beers not ten. We generally can agree that much of success, happiness, and risk reduction in life is up to an individual. That's what makes this country great. Ok cool.

What has happened here, is that we've developed some social norms surrounding dangerous (in the broad sense) activities in this country. They typically start out as a counter culture, and are ignored by the mainstream or by government/regulators until people start dying or getting hurt at a rate that impacts the rest of the public (we have to pay for their medical bills/lawsuit awards). Or they're around for so long, become so popular that they become institutions on their own, and codify that internal wisdom and experience.

Point being - no one cares about your safety right now. So in a vacuum, you'd be right.

The problem is, we are not operating in a vacuum. All things aren't equal. There are THOUSANDS of people climbing trees, operating under the assumption that the way they are doing it, has been studied, analyzed, tested, etc. and the methods and equipment they're using are safer to use because of that. The reason they think that, is because these other climbing or work disciplines have that structure in place. And because thousands of other people are doing it.

I'm simply trying to get people to understand that that assumption is wrong. There may be some truth to it, but not a lot. If everyone understood they are operating on very few well vetted assumptions, your premise that it's in their hands now would be correct. But that is not true.

I'm just trying to work on the foundations of what we're basing our hunting activities on.

 

[_Dario]

^^ he’s trying to understand why plants crave electrolytes. I have to rewatch that soon

 

[LAKY]

I'm just trying to work on the foundations of what we're basing our hunting activities on.

There are no foundations because our activity is not tied to an organization. The closest thing we have to it is the TMA, and until they approve a saddle, you won't have foundations. And, you're not going to have a splinter organization just for elevated saddle hunting, because the companies won't want to pay to certify in multiple organizations. Sure, you can use different pieces based on different activities like rock climbers or arborists, but those aren't tied to hunting.

 

[Fl Canopy Stalker]

There are no foundations because our activity is not tied to an organization. The closest thing we have to it is the TMA, and until they approve a saddle, you won't have foundations. And, you're not going to have a splinter organization just for elevated saddle hunting, because the companies won't want to pay to certify in multiple organizations. Sure, you can use different pieces based on different activities like rock climbers or arborists, but those aren't tied to hunting.

I agree with what you’re saying. I’ve stated the exact same thing. Even though arbor culture is similar in nature, it is also very different in execution. Arborist are constantly moving, repositioning, changing branches and rigging points, all while wielding a chainsaw. That is much different than climbing once or twice, setting up on a small platform and staying there for a couple hours straight. Rock climbing, similar thing, they are advancing constantly they take special measures to reduce the impact of falls because they have the distances to do so. Tree stands use a similar concept to us however their harnesses are used in a far different capacity. They catch you after you fall, ours keep you from falling. So even the companies that do test, they are passing tests designed for a slightly different force application. There will be standards before TMA adopts anything. TMA doesn’t make standards and you don’t have to be a TMA member to meets ASTM/ANSI standards and sell stands. TMA does a great job of backing up their members when something goes wrong. They also help you find approved testing sites, insurances and guidelines. ASTM has a technical committee that is currently creating and reviewing standards for saddle hunting. It is only $75 to join the technical committee. I think some of us with a safety style approach and understanding of the dangers or how to use administrative controls to avoid them, should pay that small amount and join.

 

[kyler1945]

There are no foundations because our activity is not tied to an organization. The closest thing we have to it is the TMA, and until they approve a saddle, you won't have foundations. And, you're not going to have a splinter organization just for elevated saddle hunting, because the companies won't want to pay to certify in multiple organizations. Sure, you can use different pieces based on different activities like rock climbers or arborists, but those aren't tied to hunting.

Because we don't have good foundations, does not mean people aren't basing their downstream assumptions on SOMETHING.

That's the point - I'm trying to point out that whatever they think that something is, it isn't. And that if you don't correct that, it's almost inevitable that we're going to find a type of failure based on those assumptions that will start hurting people.

This isn't a prediction or a prescription. I'm describing things as they are now, hoping to get people to adjust their perception of how things are now. I'd love to be involved in solutions, but that's not what's happening here.

 

[philsanchez76]

i totally get the no rope on webbing connection. Would the same be true for a loose webbing on webbing connection?? Ie could tubular webbing saw through tubular webbing?

Bump on this question??

 

[LAKY]

Because we don't have good foundations, does not mean people aren't basing their downstream assumptions on SOMETHING.

That's the point - I'm trying to point out that whatever they think that something is, it isn't. And that if you don't correct that, it's almost inevitable that we're going to find a type of failure based on those assumptions that will start hurting people.

This isn't a prediction or a prescription. I'm describing things as they are now, hoping to get people to adjust their perception of how things are now. I'd love to be involved in solutions, but that's not what's happening here.

You aren't going to change the general hunting public assumptions especially when you have commercially available saddles. Granted, most people will do an internet search and watch some videos and see some things on social media, but saddle hunting is so tied to the DIY mindset, that you aren't going to change that. And, with that DIY mindset, people are going to do things that aren't "safe".

 

[LAKY]

New Proposed Saddle hunting Standards to the ASTM:

WK75939 Hunting Saddle Static Load Capacity

WK75936 Hunting Saddles

WK75942 Hunting Saddle Dynamic Load Capacity

 

[Zoa]

Rope course work for which industry? Mountaineering? Tactical reduce? Rock climbing or arbor culture? If arbor culture, do you also use an arborist saddle with metal side point connections? People here are tying into a single linesman loop. Just curious since you are apparently a technical trainer… In your course do you allow 3’ of tether slack the way people do for one sticking? Do you use mechanicals? What size rope are you certifying people to climb with?

Outdoor ed, so challenge course stuff. Not anything hardcore, but a wide variety of scenarios with inexperienced climbers. I am not super familiar with one sticking, but in general anything that has the potential to introduce more than a foot of slack has to be on a dynamic belay of some kind. I do not use mechanicals, and 11mm is the standard.

Kyler's point about assumption traps is one that I think needs to be widely read.