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Do you tie off your saddle to the end of your tether?

Do you tie in to the end of your tether?

  • Yes

    Votes: 46 46.5%
  • No

    Votes: 53 53.5%

  • Total voters
    99

Fl Canopy Stalker

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To rein this back in a bit. Someone tell me if this is incorrect:

Generally speaking, tying the end of your tether back into the carabiner or to a linesman loop for the most part would only be beneficial for rope management. If you fall hard enough to cause your main connection to fail, it doesn’t matter where your tag end is connected because you are already toast. All this assumes you are using in spec gear and no wonky DIY gizmos.
My opinion is yes! However…. If I were to tie it in, it would be to the carabiner not the linesman loop. I’m basing this opinion off of someone using tested commercial equipment that we know has minimum strength requirements. It is not based on the assumptions that it was DIY’d by a guy that learned to tie knots, use a sewing machine and splice rope 2 or 3 months ago….. I mean some of us cannot tie our shoes properly, let alone a double fisherman’s knot for a continuous prusik loop. In those cases I suggest as many connection points as you can possibly muster lol:sweatsmile:
 

gcr0003

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To rein this back in a bit. Someone tell me if this is incorrect:

Generally speaking, tying the end of your tether back into the carabiner or to a linesman loop for the most part would only be beneficial for rope management. If you fall hard enough to cause your main connection to fail, it doesn’t matter where your tag end is connected because you are already toast. All this assumes you are using in spec gear and no wonky DIY gizmos.
Here is a scenario. If your tether hitch was sacrificed, lets say cut or otherwise worn out and old, you could experience a failure that wasn't a result of a fall. Having the end of your tether attached AND the slack taken out as much as possible and attached to your bridge caribiner you could reduce the distance you would drop as well as the impact of the fall when the hitch fails.

The other concern or failure point to me would be the bridge, but I think there are too many factors that could play into a bridge/bridge loop failure.
At the end of the day these saddle are essentially work positioning harnesses, not fall arrest harnesses. If you are one-sticking or doing something that would put you in a position to experience a fall on a slack system then you have to accept those risks or add a fall arrest system in conjunction with your saddle.

When I started saddle hunting I hunted out of a HSS harness and a fleece saddle. I used the linemans loop and a linemans belt to climb my sticks and I would connect the line from my fall arrest harness to my tether caribiner in the event that the fleece saddle failed.
 

gcr0003

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I say that because if you are falling at a force great enough to fail your hitch holding you to the tether, youre likely "toast" anyway. Maybe that makes sense.
 

kyler1945

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There are many assumptions that the only way for a friction hitch to fail is catastrophic unexpected failure. They're still tied by humans. Their diameter, sheath, melting point, etc. is still chosen by humans. There is a wide net of "fail" that isn't just a wayward broadhead or manufacturing defect that results in it being "gone".

Also, another question.

Is there any profession, or published climbing procedure, that recommends a climber not being tied directly to their anchor or climbing rope at all times? Is there any that allow or promote only being attached to a friction hitch or mechanical ascender, descender, or progress capture device only, and not to the rope/anchor itself or with a backup hitch/device?
 

gcr0003

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There are many assumptions that the only way for a friction hitch to fail is catastrophic unexpected failure. They're still tied by humans. Their diameter, sheath, melting point, etc. is still chosen by humans. There is a wide net of "fail" that isn't just a wayward broadhead or manufacturing defect that results in it being "gone".

Also, another question.

Is there any profession, or published climbing procedure, that recommends a climber not being tied directly to their anchor or climbing rope at all times? Is there any that allow or promote only being attached to a friction hitch or mechanical ascender, descender, or progress capture device only, and not to the rope/anchor itself or with a backup hitch/device?
I think when the arborists (at least the ones I have seen) are at working height, they are always connected to the tree by two tethers or a tether and their climbing rope or their tree squeeze and a tether. Lots of redundancy when you're slinging a chainsaw around 60 ft up in the air. BTW, I love watching this dude on youtube.
 

_Dario

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I think when the arborists (at least the ones I have seen) are at working height, they are always connected to the tree by two tethers or a tether and their climbing rope or their tree squeeze and a tether. Lots of redundancy when you're slinging a chainsaw around 60 ft up in the air. BTW, I love watching this dude on youtube.
what a crazy job man. Just found my new rabbit hole - thanks a lot bud
 

2Sloe

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To rein this back in a bit. Someone tell me if this is incorrect:

Generally speaking, tying the end of your tether back into the carabiner or to a linesman loop for the most part would only be beneficial for rope management. If you fall hard enough to cause your main connection to fail, it doesn’t matter where your tag end is connected because you are already toast. All this assumes you are using in spec gear and no wonky DIY gizmos.
Generally speaking, I’m going to say that if you fall hard enough to break your main connection, you are already dead. Rope is almost 5k MBS, same with carabiner, same with Amsteel bridge and I routinely see saddle company saying thier saddle has over 5k lbs MBS. So, if your main just broke, your body just soaked up north of 5k lbs. Saw something on here a few days ago saying anything over a thousand and you would be hurt’n for certain and we’re talking about 4X that amount. That make sense? In my opinion backups are for someones own stupid mistakes, vice equipment failures.
 

Fairchild#17

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Do those saddles have reinforced bridge loops?
It doesn't matter with these uninformed internet people does it? Let them know it's OK to hang from a rope attached to webbing, and the next thing you know they'll be using 550 paracord for tethers........according to your logic.
I'd rather just put the truth out there and let people make their own informed decisions.

Suggesting that the guy was going to hurt himself because his rope touched his webbing bridge is ridiculous. There is no reason to extrapolate a dangerous situation from that picture.
 
Last edited:

HuumanCreed

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Generally speaking, I’m going to say that if you fall hard enough to break your main connection, you are already dead. Rope is almost 5k MBS, same with carabiner, same with Amsteel bridge and I routinely see saddle company saying thier saddle has over 5k lbs MBS. So, if your main just broke, your body just soaked up north of 5k lbs. Saw something on here a few days ago saying anything over a thousand and you would be hurt’n for certain and we’re talking about 4X that amount. That make sense? In my opinion backups are for someones own stupid mistakes, vice equipment failures.
I'm 100% in this camp. The backups system that I deployed are all meant to cover my own mistakes. At no time do I expect my equipment to fail (not saying I dont routinely check them, just that its unlikely that my rope snap), the more likely scenarios are me forgetting to lock a carabiner or rushing something and not making sure I have a firm footing.
 

kyler1945

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It doesn't matter with these uninformed internet people does it? Let them know it's OK to hang from a rope attached to webbing, and the next thing you know they'll be using 550 paracord for tethers........according to your logic.
I'd rather just put the truth out there and let people make their own informed decisions.

Suggesting that the guy was going to hurt himself because his rope touched his webbing bridge is ridiculous. There is no reason to extrapolate a dangerous situation from that picture.
you’re right man.

@AppalachianArcher we are sorry if we hurt your feelings or made you feel like you’re a bad person.

It is true that some saddles come with rope bridge tied to reinforced webbing bridge loops.

it’s true that some people immediately remove their rope bridges and use a different bridge, even though those loops are reinforced.

It is true that as a general rule, connecting climbing rope to nylon webbing is not a good idea.

It is true that no harm will come to you directly if your tag end of your tether is half hitched on the side of your bridge for tidiness.

It is not proven to say that people get bad ideas off the internet and inflict suffering upon themselves or others by implementing their own version of those ideas. There’s evidence. Like a lot of it. But it can’t be proven. So it’s probably best to ignore how things scale, and the flattening of context on the internet.

I should never have suggested that you may have contributed to such a thing.

also, if you’ll please unlearn that webbing/rope generally is a bad idea for the reasons @Vtbow mentioned above, because his post and my post were mean, and relearn it from @Fl Canopy Stalker post about yankin trucks and stumps, that would be great.
 

Fl Canopy Stalker

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There are many assumptions that the only way for a friction hitch to fail is catastrophic unexpected failure. They're still tied by humans. Their diameter, sheath, melting point, etc. is still chosen by humans. There is a wide net of "fail" that isn't just a wayward broadhead or manufacturing defect that results in it being "gone".

Also, another question.

Is there any profession, or published climbing procedure, that recommends a climber not being tied directly to their anchor or climbing rope at all times? Is there any that allow or promote only being attached to a friction hitch or mechanical ascender, descender, or progress capture device only, and not to the rope/anchor itself or with a backup hitch/device?
In my industry we climb often although it’s poles not trees. We do not attach directly to the rope. We connect our linesman belt only and keep it tight. If we have to go around an insulator or a bolt (old pole spikes) or low phone lines, we have a rope that we use as a secondary lineman rope to pass that object. I do know many arborist use ropes to climb. They do disconnect from the ropes to connect to lanyards (tethers) when they have to advance their rope positions. If they climb on spikes obviously they’d have a linesman rope and a positioning lanyard. This is good for thought: is it possible that arborist and Mountain climbers are staying tied in to their climbing line and using the lanyard to assist with certain angles or positioning, thus the lead line is only connected because after they cut that branch or tie off the rigging, they are continuously moving due to the nature of their industry? Thought? I read through that forestry regulations someone posted the other day and I do not remember a “requirement” that they be tied into 2 places or directly to a lead line at all times. Perhaps one of our arborist on here can answer that?
 

Vtbow

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It doesn't matter with these uninformed internet people does it? Let them know it's OK to hang from a rope attached to webbing, and the next thing you know they'll be using 550 paracord for tethers........according to your logic.
I'd rather just put the truth out there and let people make their own informed decisions.

Suggesting that the guy was going to hurt himself because his rope touched his webbing bridge is ridiculous. There is no reason to extrapolate a dangerous situation from that picture.
There are industry standards and safety protocols for reasons. If you are going to manage risk efficiently, you do not get to choose when, where, or how to apply those standards. Tying a rope into webbing with zero reinforcements is against all safety protocols in the climbing world. Sure, climbers tie into their harness all the time with a rope, but the harness loops they tie through are reinforced.

The OP of the picture had no idea this was a poor idea in general, I am glad that he is now aware. Was his action going to cut through the bridge? No. Was it best practice to do so? No. The point is, to mitigate risk to the best of our ability and to control risk variables that we can we should be following best practices at all times, and we should not be supporting practices that don't meet or exceed these standards.

I'm done- you won't hear from me again in this thread.
 

Fl Canopy Stalker

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you’re right man.

@AppalachianArcher we are sorry if we hurt your feelings or made you feel like you’re a bad person.

It is true that some saddles come with rope bridge tied to reinforced webbing bridge loops.

it’s true that some people immediately remove their rope bridges and use a different bridge, even though those loops are reinforced.

It is true that as a general rule, connecting climbing rope to nylon webbing is not a good idea.

It is true that no harm will come to you directly if your tag end of your tether is half hitched on the side of your bridge for tidiness.

It is not proven to say that people get bad ideas off the internet and inflict suffering upon themselves or others by implementing their own version of those ideas. There’s evidence. Like a lot of it. But it can’t be proven. So it’s probably best to ignore how things scale, and the flattening of context on the internet.

I should never have suggested that you may have contributed to such a thing.

also, if you’ll please unlearn that webbing/rope generally is a bad idea for the reasons @Vtbow mentioned above, because his post and my post were mean, and relearn it from @Fl Canopy Stalker post about yankin trucks and stumps, that would be great.
You would be correct across the board. I was just saying he tied the end with no resistance on it to cause damage. He stated he did not do it for strength or functional purposes.
and my line about stumps with ropes and tow straps was made in jest. I do not ever condone the use of weighted rope onto bare webbing that doesn’t have a friction shielding of some sort. Rope can literally saw webbing in half due to abrasion
 

_Dario

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Dear lord, Is this really worth the energy? Lol

This guy tied a tag end of webbing off. If we are being honest with ourselves, are we just playing a game of scolding people to seem superior?

“Hey I noticed you tied your tag end of webbing off to rope. In this case that’s completely fine. For anyone else checking this out, remember to never tie webbing to rope in any scenario where load would be applied because the webbing could break.”

Way less inflammatory. Gets the point across. No arguments. That’s not how the internet works though I suppose.
 

kyler1945

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You would be correct across the board. I was just saying he tied the end with no resistance on it to cause damage. He stated he did not do it for strength or functional purposes.
and my line about stumps with ropes and tow straps was made in jest. I do not ever condone the use of weighted rope onto bare webbing that doesn’t have a friction shielding of some sort. Rope can literally saw webbing in half due to abrasion
Haha Your delivery was probably the better option. I was more poking fun at the whole conversation, really.
 

kyler1945

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Dear lord, Is this really worth the energy? Lol

This guy tied a tag end of webbing off. If we are being honest with ourselves, are we just playing a game of scolding people to seem superior?

“Hey I noticed you tied your tag end of webbing off to rope. In this case that’s completely fine. For anyone else checking this out, remember to never tie webbing to rope in any scenario where load would be applied because the webbing could break.”

Way less inflammatory. Gets the point across. No arguments. That’s not how the internet works though I suppose.
The best way to handle is through PM or in person. 0 feelings get hurt and if they do, it can be recovered without the crowd watching and what that does to people.

You’re right that a little sugar makes medicine go down. But I think you’re mixing up someone else’s superiority complex with what’s going on here. In both cases of posts directed at the original picture and the reasoning behind pointing it out in a specific way, I can 100% vouch for the motivations of @Vtbow and myself. And it isn’t to feel better than anyone.

It’s because, frankly, we’re both in awe of, and worried about both the volume of bad ideas, and the collective ignorance surrounding climbing. I’m more concerned with the vacuum of critical thinking, but it’s one in the same. Both of us just want to see less bad information out there, and for people not to get hurt. Sure, there’s always subtext. Everyone wants friends and to be liked. We just suck at it, in public.

but let’s not guess at the motivations of folks who really want to help. That’s a quick way to lose resources.
 

HuumanCreed

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I take criticism from this forum especially well. This is all based on my experience with other forums also. I read everything with a mindset of:

The principle of evil triumph when good men do nothing. So people are commenting because they care, not that they want to show off their superiority. If you are not calling someone out for doing something you feel might be unsafe, you are doing a disservice to them.

What's the point of going to a place with wealth of experiences and to brainstorm ideas if you are not willing to entertain them?

Understand that they gain nothing from your failure or hurt feeling.

But the most important thing to remember is................you PEEL A BABANA FROM THE BOTTOM!
 
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_Dario

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Agreed to all above. We can ignore the superiority complex theory then. That was a small part of my point. If we’re going to survive superbugs and AI surely we’re thick skinned enough for that piece of commentary.

If this is true:
You’re right that a little sugar makes medicine go down.

And this is true:
Both of us just want to see less bad information out there, and for people not to get hurt.

Then I am sure there was a better way to deliver the message. And you guys have been around awhile. I am sure you are jaded. And Possibly even this one message was an outlier and uncharacteristic. Idk. I am sure most of us would be pals in real life, whatever that’s worth.
 
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