I understand. So if wool is .08 per oz, is my 20oz wool 1.6?
If so it is a good mid layer?
Just asking. Hard to find a good mid layer pant.
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Mid Layer
- Thread starter Bowtie747
- Start date
If so it is a good mid layer?
Just asking. Hard to find a good mid layer pant.
TNbowhunter
Well-Known Member
For upper body, it's awfully hard to beat my heated puffy vest from Ororo (linked HERE). For lower body, I like fleece as a midlayer, but that obviously won't hold up as your outer for hiking in unless you're not hiking through brush or unless it's a fleece-lined pant like the First Lite Catalyst Foundry Pant (linked HERE).
No. And no. Look at the different fabric weights. It is not a 1:1 ratio. You pile on many layers of a low quality/poor insulation, or just use a heavier fabric weight, it is not going to exponentially be a better insulator. It is just going to be thicker and bulkier, not necessarily retain more heat.
Define what you are looking for in a good mid layer pant and that will direct what you should look at. Purely static hunting, no rain, minimal movement, no walking, and you can cover it up with an outer layer that doesn’t compress things? Down would be the answer, by a significant margin. Some movement, with moisture a potential? Something with primaloft, climashield, etc. works well.
Fleece and merino are not particularly good for insulation layers.
roosterstraw
Well-Known Member
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Lightweight merino base layer for the walk in. Lightweight wind blocker vest, heavy merino base layer, stratus vest, fanatic jacket. That’s what I wear down into the teens. Haven’t had a problem with staying warm.
Where? They are all 1oz per sq yard.
I am trying to convert the ratings to real world garments. Things I own and use.
Wool has been the standard for hunters since before our time. I am sorry but I don't understand how wool is a poor insulator.
Yea, I also don’t understand how wool doesn’t help either. My typical setup is a first lite furnace and the Sitka stratus jacket. Since I’ve gotten the heavy wool I notice being warmer. I’ve been confused by that chart for a while.
And I was looking at pants. Down and Primaloft is great. But in a pant you compress the insulation in you seat. Then your butt gets cold.
Edit: I have a pair of 100 gram thinsulite pants. My Filson 20oz wool pants are warmer.
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This conversation perfectly aligns with what I'm trying to figure out, especially @GeoFish with the pants. Glad we're having it and add one more not so sure how to interpret the chart. It's great on its face, but not so easily translated to making a selection.
Fwiw, I do find my , yes I'd say lightweight merino, to be fantastic when I'm mobile, even a little. Get on stand and I'm a Horn-cicle. Looking to balance that myself with big vents in my bottoms, because I don't want to mess with boots or trying to get *most* bottoms over my boots in the field
Fwiw, I do find my , yes I'd say lightweight merino, to be fantastic when I'm mobile, even a little. Get on stand and I'm a Horn-cicle. Looking to balance that myself with big vents in my bottoms, because I don't want to mess with boots or trying to get *most* bottoms over my boots in the field
Mid layer is also something I've struggled with. I got some black ovis anchor point pants and jacket on sale a year or so ago, down puffy layers- pants have full size zips so I can put em on without taking off the boots if needed, that worked well enough to hold off the chill when paired with rain gear on my last seak trip (40s and raining). Hoping they will work well as a mid layer (or in a pinch extra outer layer) in the whitetail woods as well, but haven't had cold enough weather to try them out yet. Being down they pack down pretty small as well. I think there's better versions out there but I found these for half off on camofire/black Friday I think. Better brands likely will work even better, these are good enough for the frequency I use them at this point.
Also on a so what related note, check out the booties threads and get good hand warmers/muffs, I've found that when the weather is that cold it's the hands and feet getting cold that pushed it over the edge for me, I figured out last year that I can last longer with a crappy or nonexistent mid layer if I keep my hands and feet warm and embrace the suffer a bit. Hoping to get it s bit more figured out and not suffer this year lol.
Also on a so what related note, check out the booties threads and get good hand warmers/muffs, I've found that when the weather is that cold it's the hands and feet getting cold that pushed it over the edge for me, I figured out last year that I can last longer with a crappy or nonexistent mid layer if I keep my hands and feet warm and embrace the suffer a bit. Hoping to get it s bit more figured out and not suffer this year lol.
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Please tell me more about the shift pants, and quick while they're cheap lol. No worries if you're not on here man, but they do have my attention. What kind of Temps are you using them, shell layer ect? I'm looking for the big vents they offer, and pretty big warmth. Mid- west Michigan so it was like 80 freaking 5 opening day( 10-1) and closer to 26 today
. Hoping vents let me be mobile and warm when still, if that unicorn existsDang, now u got me looking at that shift series. Badlands stuff looks pretty goodPlease tell me more about the shift pants, and quick while they're cheap lol. No worries if you're not on here man, but they do have my attention. What kind of Temps are you using them, shell layer ect? I'm looking for the big vents they offer, and pretty big warmth. Mid- west Michigan so it was like 80 freaking 5 opening day( 10-1) and closer to 26 today
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I have one friend that likes them but says Sitka is better. I'm looking to really fill a specific mid layer need, I think. At this point haha. But if this shift pant is really $200 worth of insulation then it's a steal at 80
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Pnuma has some pretty killer deals in their outlet granted I don’t have first hand experience but their puffer looks like a steal
Currently I’m running a arcteryx Cerium Hoody as a mid layer I pack in although I haven’t had to use it yet.
I run merino base layers either wool shirt or sleeping Indian wool vest and anorak…if it’s real cold I throw a sleeping Indian jacket on.
I did just order the Pnuma heated base layers but haven’t arrived yet
Currently I’m running a arcteryx Cerium Hoody as a mid layer I pack in although I haven’t had to use it yet.
I run merino base layers either wool shirt or sleeping Indian wool vest and anorak…if it’s real cold I throw a sleeping Indian jacket on.
I did just order the Pnuma heated base layers but haven’t arrived yet
sconnieVLP
Member
Big fan of my Source jacket. I normally go hooded midweight piece, then a vest, then the Source to layer up and down as needed. I kind of wish they would make a hooded version, I like hoods on my outer layers.
I only run two layers on my legs and 3 on my upper body tops. Kuiu super thin synthetic base layer top. Then the source jacket. Then either the Stratus or Fanatic depending on temp. Lower legs it's either Sitka equinox pants only when warmer. Or Kuiu 290 base layers, followed by the Stratus bibs or Fanatic bibs.
The FL source is one of the best things they make. It's comes with nearly every hunt
The FL source is one of the best things they make. It's comes with nearly every hunt
I really like the Shift set down to 25-30dF under a good outer layer, and this year it has been my go-to up to this point. My base layer kit builds a really solid foundation for utilizing mid-layer and outer layers to the greatest efficiency. If you don't have a good foundation, everything else is performing at a lower factor than is possible... I will say from "just" a warmth perspective, my FL Umcompaghre set is a tad warmer (especially in the pants), and the legitimate puffy stuff that I have is warmer yet. I personally don't use down because I prefer having the benefit of warmth-while-wet, which is a very high possibility for me. I use a myriad of brands, but Badlands has some nice stuff that has pushed my buttons over the last few years. My preferred shell down to 25-30dF is the Badlands Venture set (which does prioritize packability to an extent), the Badlands Silens set for 20-30dF, and the Badlands Pyre set for less than 20dF. My outer layer/shell MUST be wind-resistant or wind-proof, water-resistant or water-proof, and quiet. Then again, there's the whole rain gear thing too... I prefer to hike in light with minimal layers (at any temp), and then add before I sit!Please tell me more about the shift pants, and quick while they're cheap lol. No worries if you're not on here man, but they do have my attention. What kind of Temps are you using them, shell layer ect? I'm looking for the big vents they offer, and pretty big warmth. Mid- west Michigan so it was like 80 freaking 5 opening day( 10-1) and closer to 26 today
The other piece of the puzzle that has kind of been mentioned is that puffy layers don't work well when compressed, so your outer layers must be sized to not compress your mid-layer (leaving room for warm dead air space). Your saddle will compress your butt area, but I personally don't really get cold there (and I don't have a "butt" lol). For external saddle insulation I have used the Tethrd SBW Heater (just left it installed year round), and currently the CGM Saddle Woobie (if you're sitting on the ground you can use it as a shawl too lol).
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Everyone has personal preferences and while there may be some purely subjective points, most is preference. I've owned most of the Badlands pieces and most of the First Light pieces, and while I still have and utilize some of both (and quite a few other various brand specific pieces), most of my current primary use stuff is Badlands. Geist Camo actually intrigues me too, but...
When you buy wool, most pieces are rated in "gsm", which realistically can be converted to oz/yd, but... Wool and/or fleece works effectively, it's just not comparable in efficiency to a piece that's going to create dead air space.
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(Merino) Wool‘s best features imo are it’s anti-microbial human stink inhibition and greater resistance to catching fire than synthetics. It is certainly quiet too.
The buzz over wool’s water management and warm when wet properties may be a bit overstated. It certainly retains water, is heavy, and heavier when wet.
Fleece vs. Wool Insulation
So, you guys know that I am skeptical about most things that I can’t confirm through personal experience, so I have been doing some testing ...
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