New Gear for 2023, Go!

[Arrowsquirrel]

The tiny Wild Line rope is not out of spec. It's plenty strong to be used as a linesman rope (not a tether).

MBS of Back Up Line 12kn or 2,800 pounds.
MBS of 1/8 Technora 13kn or 2,900 pounds

The safety issue of a Ropeman is not because the Ropeman itself isn't strong enough to be used as a rope clamp. It's the fact that people use it on ropes that it's not certified for and then you have the issue of it failing at like 4 to 6 KN on a dynamic fall (see this thread https://saddlehunter.com/community/index.php?threads/ropeman-1-failure.15225). It also requires specific carabiners to be maximum effective.

Friction hitches can slip (which is why your tether and linesman rope should have stopper knots on the tag end) but they won't necessarily de-sheath or cut a rope like a rope clamp.

I guess I don't see the difference between tether and lineman. The way they get used in the tree one shouldn't have a lower rating than the other in my opinion. I guess I was under the impression 20 or 24kn was the minimum for climbing. Has that changed?

 

[woodsdog2]

I guess I don't see the difference between tether and lineman. The way they get used in the tree one shouldn't have a lower rating than the other in my opinion. I guess I was under the impression 20 or 24kn was the minimum for climbing. Has that changed?

I was thinking the same thing.
Perhaps because you end up using the tether more often and under constant load more than a LB?

 

[skyjacker]

I guess I don't see the difference between tether and lineman. The way they get used in the tree one shouldn't have a lower rating than the other in my opinion. I guess I was under the impression 20 or 24kn was the minimum for climbing. Has that changed?

There's a difference.

There's a massive misconception on what a linesman belt's purpose is. It's simply there to allow you to lean back a bit, not lose your balance and be hands free while setting your next stick or bolts or steps.

If you take a fall for whatever reason on a linesman belt it's possible you are falling to the ground. Maybe it catches you, maybe it doesn't. The damage that would happen is unknown. Depends on what is underneath you. I haven't seen any data on this.

So no, there's no standard rating on a linesman belt.

A tether is different. You're actually tethered to the tree (a solid anchor). That's not the case for a linesman belt. There is a ton of data on people tethering themselves into things. Arborist, rock climbing, canyoneering, mountaineering, really anyone that works at heights tethers themselves into something solid and anchored. Google "Fall Factors". A fall factor determines the forces applied to the system including your body and it's shocking how much force is applied in higher fall factors.

We don't know what the minimum rating is here either. Do you have a shock absorber? Are you using a hitch? If so, what diameter? What is the hitch material? What is the rope diameter? What is the rope material? Are you using a mechanical rope clamp? With what diameter rope? Does the rope clamp perform better with different ropes? There are too many variables to measure and decide on what a minimum is.

Ropeman, Kong Duck, CT RollNLock are made for the rock climbing/search and rescue world. They are not tested in a linesman belt scenario. But they are tested in a tether scenario because rock climbers and search and rescue tether themselves into anchors while using these rope clamps.

Some people have the exact same setup for a linesman belt and tether because they use them interchangeably. That's the only reason they could be the same.

 

[Iron_llama]

Some people have the exact same setup for a linesman belt and tether because they use them interchangeably. That's the only reason they could be the same.

As i understand (and practice) my backup tether does double duty as my LB. But is rated for fall arrest. I haven't really looked at the WLR product but I would suggest getting a redundant tether you can employ as a LB rather than a dedicated LB that shouldn't be used as a tether.

 

[skyjacker]

As i understand (and practice) my backup tether does double duty as my LB. But is rated for fall arrest. I haven't really looked at the WLR product but I would suggest getting a redundant tether you can employ as a LB rather than a dedicated LB that shouldn't be used as a tether.

Why do you suggest that? What scenario would you need to use a linesman belt as a tether? To make a linesman belt/tether system redundant you actually need a three tethers. Because you need the linesman belt to set the tether, otherwise it's already unsafe. For me if either one of those ropes are compromised, the hunt is over.

 

[TheBlindCat]

Why do you suggest that? What scenario would you need to use a tether as a linesman belt or a linesman belt as a tether? To make a linesman belt/tether system redundant you actually need a three tethers. Because you need the linesman belt to set the tether, otherwise it's already unsafe. For me if either one of those ropes are compromised, the hunt is over.

Using a tether as a second lineman’s belt while going around a limb is an example.

 

[Iron_llama]

Using a tether as a second lineman’s belt while going around a limb is an example.

Seems unlikely one would simultaneously need 2 tethers and an LB. Pretty painless to reconfigure as needed.

 

[bigmike23]

The wlr 5mm hitch seemed amazing in theory. Garbage in reality. The hitch loosens even better and smoother with more control than a Ropeman. But taking up slack there's zero comparison. The Ropeman is infinitely better.
And 2, 5mm blows for a lb. It's way too supple on a tree. Ive tried 5, 8, 9mm. And nothing is as good in use as 11mm rope.

 

[Arrowsquirrel]

There's a difference.

There's a massive misconception on what a linesman belt's purpose is. It's simply there to allow you to lean back a bit, not lose your balance and be hands free while setting your next stick or bolts or steps.

If you take a fall for whatever reason on a linesman belt it's possible you are falling to the ground. Maybe it catches you, maybe it doesn't. The damage that would happen is unknown. Depends on what is underneath you. I haven't seen any data on this.

So no, there's no standard rating on a linesman belt.

A tether is different. You're actually tethered to the tree (a solid anchor). That's not the case for a linesman belt. There is a ton of data on people tethering themselves into things. Arborist, rock climbing, canyoneering, mountaineering, really anyone that works at heights tethers themselves into something solid and anchored. Google "Fall Factors". A fall factor determines the forces applied to the system including your body and it's shocking how much force is applied in higher fall factors.

We don't know what the minimum rating is here either. Do you have a shock absorber? Are you using a hitch? If so, what diameter? What is the hitch material? What is the rope diameter? What is the rope material? Are you using a mechanical rope clamp? With what diameter rope? Does the rope clamp perform better with different ropes? There are too many variables to measure and decide on what a minimum is.

Ropeman, Kong Duck, CT RollNLock are made for the rock climbing/search and rescue world. They are not tested in a linesman belt scenario. But they are tested in a tether scenario because rock climbers and search and rescue tether themselves into anchors while using these rope clamps.

Some people have the exact same setup for a linesman belt and tether because they use them interchangeably. That's the only reason they could be the same.

It just seems like common sense that if you are selling to the public what you are selling should meet standard fall minimums no matter the configuration you are using the rope in. It doesn't bother me to use something that doesn't meet the minimums but I'm making that choice with the knowledge of what I'm doing. That's different than when something is being sold to the public while not meeting the minimums. Especially when the swelling point is how minimal it is without talking about the risk involved.

 

[skyjacker]

It just seems like common sense that if you are selling to the public what you are selling should meet standard fall minimums no matter the configuration you are using the rope in. It doesn't bother me to use something that doesn't meet the minimums but I'm making that choice with the knowledge of what I'm doing. That's different than when something is being sold to the public while not meeting the minimums. Especially when the swelling point is how minimal it is without talking about the risk involved.

Once again ... what are standard fall minimums for a linesman belt?

 

[Arrowsquirrel]

Once again ... what are standard fall minimums for a linesman belt?

Once again beings there isn't a definition answer to that question and how equipment gets used in the real world. It would seem like common sense to stick with what arborists and rock climbers have set as a minimum for ropes that secure people to objects.

 

[skyjacker]

Once again beings there isn't a definition answer to that question and how equipment gets used in the real world. It would seem like common sense to stick with what arborists and rock climbers have set as a minimum for ropes that secure people to objects.

Rock climbers don't use linesman belts. Arborist don't use linesman belts as we know them, they use flip lines and they typically have steel core stiffeners or are very stiff 11 mm rope and they use spurs which require training. But more than not an Arborist will use a throw line and rope walk. It's apples and oranges to using climbing sticks and linesman belts. Ropeman's on a linesman belt is by your definition already breaking a standard. They're not made for that.

 

[Arrowsquirrel]

Yeah your right I got kinda a double standard with what I'm saying. I think really we agree for the most part. I just hope nobody gets hurt.

 

[skyjacker]

Yeah your right I got kinda a double standard with what I'm saying. I think really we agree for the most part. I just hope nobody gets hurt.

Same, I really hope nobody gets hurt and I wish there was a push for more testing. But I have doubts safety will become the highest priority when there are still hunters climbing into ladder stands with nothing but the clothes on their back. Not going to lie, I'm guilty of it. But at the very least maybe we have some people thinking about their safety by reading this thread and that's a win in my book.

 

[enkriss]

The wlr 5mm hitch seemed amazing in theory. Garbage in reality. The hitch loosens even better and smoother with more control than a Ropeman. But taking up slack there's zero comparison. The Ropeman is infinitely better.
And 2, 5mm blows for a lb. It's way too supple on a tree. Ive tried 5, 8, 9mm. And nothing is as good in use as 11mm rope.

Interesting… I love that WLR ultralight lineman’s. I ordered a second one even…

 

[kyler1945]

Rock climbers don't use linesman belts. Arborist don't use linesman belts as we know them, they use flip lines and they typically have steel core stiffeners or are very stiff 11 mm rope and they use spurs which require training. But more than not an Arborist will use a throw line and rope walk. It's apples and oranges to using climbing sticks and linesman belts. Ropeman's on a linesman belt is by your definition already breaking a standard. They're not made for that.

I’ve made the point about the purpose of a lineman’s belt dozens of times here. It seems to be ignored or argued with mostly.

I would be curious if some of our arborists can chime in. It’s my understanding they never leave the ground with just spurs and a lineman’s belt. If they do it’s a squeeze that offers the same protection as a tether. They’re 100% tie off outside of that. I could be wrong.

Most industrial facilities have 100% tie off rules above 3,4, or 6 feet. Sure, rear suspension harnesses suck.

Rock climbers (not free climbers - clearly)don’t leave the ground without 100% tie off.

Hunters are the only people who leave the ground to do a dynamic activity at height, not 100% tied off from the ground up. It’s my firm belief that this is mostly due to three reasons:

- Ego

- They truly believe that the purpose of a lineman’s belt, or at least one of them, is to stop them safely in the event of a fall.

- complete lack of organized and effective best practices, safety information, training, and cooperation with manufacturers to promote these things. It’s cowboy all the way down.


None of this is a judgement. But if we could get a couple key facts into peoples’ brains, I think the orientation towards risk management would improve:

- the second you leave the ground, your risk of severe injury or death goes up exponentially, regardless of the gear training and procedures used.

- a lineman’s belt has a single purpose: to provide two additional points of contact(your hips) to aid in balance while performing tasks at height.

- saddle manufacturers, and people on YouTube and Facebook talking about saddles, are currently not in positions of authentic authority on tree climbing safety. The gap between hunters and industrial/arborist/rock climbing industries is a yawning one.

 

[Bowtie747]

Minamalist Lineman's/Tether — TX5 Custom Gear

Tuefelberger Tech Cord is an exceptionally strong cord made of a 100% technora core surrounded by a polyester sheath. This small diameter, high strength rope boasts an average Tensile strength of over 5,000 lbs. This high strength very abrasion resistant rope works perfectly as a tether or Lineman’s

www.tx5customgear.com

Looking into these. I believe they’re new. Would be nice to use on smalldump pouch to carry both my ropes.
Anyone have any reservation about these??

 

[Horn]

Minamalist Lineman's/Tether — TX5 Custom Gear

Tuefelberger Tech Cord is an exceptionally strong cord made of a 100% technora core surrounded by a polyester sheath. This small diameter, high strength rope boasts an average Tensile strength of over 5,000 lbs. This high strength very abrasion resistant rope works perfectly as a tether or Lineman’s

www.tx5customgear.com

Looking into these. I believe they’re new. Would be nice to use on smalldump pouch to carry both my ropes.
Anyone have any reservation about these??

No feedback, sorry. But SH strikes again...

 

[iamcorey]

I’ve made the point about the purpose of a lineman’s belt dozens of times here. It seems to be ignored or argued with mostly.

I would be curious if some of our arborists can chime in. It’s my understanding they never leave the ground with just spurs and a lineman’s belt. If they do it’s a squeeze that offers the same protection as a tether. They’re 100% tie off outside of that. I could be wrong.

Most industrial facilities have 100% tie off rules above 3,4, or 6 feet. Sure, rear suspension harnesses suck.

Rock climbers (not free climbers - clearly)don’t leave the ground without 100% tie off.

Hunters are the only people who leave the ground to do a dynamic activity at height, not 100% tied off from the ground up. It’s my firm belief that this is mostly due to three reasons:

- Ego

- They truly believe that the purpose of a lineman’s belt, or at least one of them, is to stop them safely in the event of a fall.

- complete lack of organized and effective best practices, safety information, training, and cooperation with manufacturers to promote these things. It’s cowboy all the way down.


None of this is a judgement. But if we could get a couple key facts into peoples’ brains, I think the orientation towards risk management would improve:

- the second you leave the ground, your risk of severe injury or death goes up exponentially, regardless of the gear training and procedures used.

- a lineman’s belt has a single purpose: to provide two additional points of contact(your hips) to aid in balance while performing tasks at height.

- saddle manufacturers, and people on YouTube and Facebook talking about saddles, are currently not in positions of authentic authority on tree climbing safety. The gap between hunters and industrial/arborist/rock climbing industries is a yawning one.

I’ve always thought the “LB =Tether” SH equation was odd. SH marketing is sprinkled with “safety first, but not to the point of minor inconvenience”

Granted it is better than nothing I guess which is how I hunted last century.

 

[TheBlindCat]

Minamalist Lineman's/Tether — TX5 Custom Gear

Tuefelberger Tech Cord is an exceptionally strong cord made of a 100% technora core surrounded by a polyester sheath. This small diameter, high strength rope boasts an average Tensile strength of over 5,000 lbs. This high strength very abrasion resistant rope works perfectly as a tether or Lineman’s

www.tx5customgear.com

Looking into these. I believe they’re new. Would be nice to use on smalldump pouch to carry both my ropes.
Anyone have any reservation about these??

They’re selling with a non locking carabiner, yikes. I plan to carry a second lineman’s belt this year for going around limbs, and a rappel rope, but I’m not going to be an early adopter of that one.