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Simple question, I think? Are longer stick/post sturdier against kick out in general?

HuumanCreed

HuumanCreed

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I understand there are a lot of different variables. But just in general, if you have a 12in stick compared to a 16in stick of the same design, would the 16in be more stable against kick out? especially on the bottom.

Thinking of making some DIY sticks or platforms from the bunch of leftover parts I have. Planning to set them up on a few trees in the yard permanently.
 
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Only had one kick out and it was with a full length stick. It was on a bad wonky spot on the tree and I should have paid more attention when setting the stick at that spot. Was a good time to be tied in with just a few inches of slack. Just my speculation but I'm not sure length is more important than the spot on the tree the stick is being hung and the geometry of the stick length and button placement.
 
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From a leverage stand point "yes", i.e. 12"=1' & 16"=1.33', thus a 33% improvement in stick leverage capacity. In reality it's 12" with a 4" attachment point and 8" of available lever arm, versus a 16" with 4" attachment point and 12" of lever amounts to a 1.5 improvement factor regarding leverage.

This is back of the envelope chicken scratch and shouldn't be used in life, health, and safety dependent situations. It is incumbent upon you to make such decisions.
 
Fuse Dude said:
From a leverage stand point "yes", i.e. 12"=1' & 16"=1.33', thus a 33% improvement in stick leverage capacity. In reality it's 12" with a 4" attachment point and 8" of available lever arm, versus a 16" with 4" attachment point and 12" of lever amounts to a 1.5 improvement factor regarding leverage.

This is back of the envelope chicken scratch and shouldn't be used in life, health, and safety dependent situations. It is incumbent upon you to make such decisions.
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BTaylor said:
Only had one kick out and it was with a full length stick. It was on a bad wonky spot on the tree and I should have paid more attention when setting the stick at that spot. Was a good time to be tied in with just a inches inches of slack. Just my speculation but I'm not sure length is more important than the spot on the tree the stick is being hung and the geometry of the stick length and button placement.
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The accepted best ratio for button placement is 1/3 down the stick right?
 
To an extent the longer sticks are more stable. Not if they are so long that the attachment point is too far away from the bottom stand-off.
I built some sticks a few years ago and built a one- stick a couple years ago. I intentionally didn’t go short for that reason. But if you have good standoffs and a sturdy attachment system and you set the stick before climbing, kick out will be rare if ever. I personally have never had a kick out but could have once when my foot dragged on the stick while stepping up and it caused it to become loose on the tree.


Also, some types of bark make kick outs more likely than others.

I like to keep my standoffs about 16” apart, minimum. I but the versa button or cam cleat one third from the top.
Hope that helps.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
HuumanCreed said:
The accepted best ratio for button placement is 1/3 down the stick right?
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I thought so but my new LWCG long sticks are not.
See post 1.

LWCG 32" Compact Climbing Sticks

Thought I would post some info on these sticks. Fist off they are not 32" long. From the stand off bolt to bolt they are 28". The step spacing is 14" not 15". Not a big deal for me but it may be to someone. The one thing I am questioning is the versa button location. It is 6 1/2" from the top...
saddlehunter.com
 
I think the top 5 factors that are critical to avoiding a kick out in order of importance are as follows
1. Attachment type. (Cam buckle or ratchet straps are the best by far, but with weight penalty)
2. Tree straightness. (Basically all kick outs I’ve had are around knots, branches, bends or forks)
3. Standoff type. (Beast sticks don’t kick out, hawks do. Wider and sharper the better)
4. Climber experience. (Someone who can climb well don’t have as many problems)
5. Stick length. (I include aiders and I don’t think normal stick vs mini stick matters as much as a 3 step aider vs no aider)
 
Fuse Dude said:
From a leverage stand point "yes", i.e. 12"=1' & 16"=1.33', thus a 33% improvement in stick leverage capacity. In reality it's 12" with a 4" attachment point and 8" of available lever arm, versus a 16" with 4" attachment point and 12" of lever amounts to a 1.5 improvement factor regarding leverage.

This is back of the envelope chicken scratch and shouldn't be used in life, health, and safety dependent situations. It is incumbent upon you to make such decisions.
Click to expand...

Let me play devils advocate here for a minute…..

Torque is equal to the Force applied x the distance from the force to the pivot point x sine of the angle

In this case leverage is the enemy. Meaning that it will take less force at the longer length (due to the added leverage) to get the same amount of movement. AND since the movement is measured as the angle increasing away from the tree this also makes kickout more likely since the longer length produces a further distance from the tree for the same angle (the height of the right triangle formed by the tree (base of the triangle) and the length (the hypotenuse of the triangle).

The stick brackets have a big effect on kickout as well. Better angles and sharper teeth supply more force that has to be offset before the stick will kick out.

With all that said; I prefer a longer stick to accommodate what all I have going on with my stick.
 
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Well it's a"static" system concept that when subject to deflection , anchoring forces, friction, all coupled with leverage applied from the to the step, and the tree applying equal and opposite reaction on the stand offs is an exercise for the student. I'm all about the static scenario not the dynamic scenario, hence my tether and the sticks have failed at that point.

A 16" stick would be my shortest preference outside of steps.

Good chat.
 
I have only had a problem with a mini shikar with a scout on bottom. I think the issue is that your weight is out away from the stick a little, leveraging the top out away from the tree. My other mini shikars are as stable as anything I've tried, even with the spinning stand offs
 
Horn said:
I have only had a problem with a mini shikar with a scout on bottom. I think the issue is that your weight is out away from the stick a little, leveraging the top out away from the tree. My other mini shikars are as stable as anything I've tried, even with the spinning stand offs
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I think this is it. I've been thinking about this question a lot. The closer the weight is applied to straight down from the stand-off, the more stable it will be. The bottom step should be most stable. If you had steps that were a foot long and put your weight out on the end, gravity will try to get the weight straight below the top stand-off and kick out the stick. If you had a step immediately below the stand-off, that one would be the step most prone to kick out.

The most stable sticks would be ones that your foot went in the middle, directly below the stand-off. There would be no side pressure.
 
The only experience I have is with the long stuff, 30" hawks and rapid rails before that. I have never had a stick kick out.
 
Horn said:
I have only had a problem with a mini shikar with a scout on bottom. I think the issue is that your weight is out away from the stick a little, leveraging the top out away from the tree. My other mini shikars are as stable as anything I've tried, even with the spinning stand offs
Click to expand...

hmm....interesting point. But how do you explain that a lot of platform's post are pretty short? Around 10-12 inches I think.
 
HuumanCreed said:
hmm....interesting point. But how do you explain that a lot of platform's post are pretty short? Around 10-12 inches I think.
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I would guess it's the caming taking up all the slack so it ends up being a lot tighter than most things we use on sticks. I can put a ratchet strap on that mini/ scout stick and see if that helps
 
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