The Heavy Arrow Movement is Flawed

[Apex7]

I've have been bow hunting a long time I've work at a archery shop for a long time.
That being said I shoot a 402 grain Carbon Express Maximum hunter shaft at 28 " my draw length is 28" poundage is 55 the bow is a Martin alien Z I have never had a problem with penetration . My bows not new but the new bows are so efficient in design that there is not too much trouble with penetration. My bows speed is 275 fps . I use to shoot a heavy aluminum Arrow years ago it was a Easton Super Slam XX 78 28" long out of a Proline New Wave at 235 fps with no problem with penetration. I just don't need to shoot a 600 grain shaft . If I were going to shoot my longbow then I would shoot a heavy shaft but with my compound I don't need it. You don't need a ton of foot pounds of kinetic energy to kill Whitetail and my bows will kill any big game animal in North America. Just my thoughts on the subject and I'm not saying anyone is wrong with their opinions on the subject I'm just stating facts that I have observe over 40 years of bow hunting and working and setting up bows.

 

[Kurt]

I’m only a 26” DL so I lose a lot of speed compared to all you ape arm fellas. So I’ve done the calculators as mentioned in every way possible. With strictly KE there is certainly a tipping point we’re weight vs speed goes the other way. But I’m more on the argument side that the momentum of that heavier arrow and weight up front carries through a shoulder blade better. I am right now around 475gr with a 27” arrow. I have 75gr insert and 125gr black hornet. I’m considering going towards 500+ gr but I’m teetering on that line of spine stiffness if I go much higher. I’m using gold tip hunter xp 340 and don’t really want to buy another set of 300 spine. So i think I’m going to fiddle with right around we’re I am to get a bullet of an arrow for flight and be good with it. I am only hunting whitetail after all. If I were hunting hogs like ranch fairy I’d probably bite the bullet with stiffer arrows.

If you went to stiffer shafts you wouldn't be sorry. You could find a buyer for your old shafts, and move up to heavier arrows. It does cost a little more but It's worth it. IMO

 

[Kurt]

I've have been bow hunting a long time I've work at a archery shop for a long time.
That being said I shoot a 402 grain Carbon Express Maximum hunter shaft at 28 " my draw length is 28" poundage is 55 the bow is a Martin alien Z I have never had a problem with penetration . My bows not new but the new bows are so efficient in design that there is not too much trouble with penetration. My bows speed is 275 fps . I use to shoot a heavy aluminum Arrow years ago it was a Easton Super Slam XX 78 28" long out of a Proline New Wave at 235 fps with no problem with penetration. I just don't need to shoot a 600 grain shaft . I were going to shoot my longbow then I would shoot a heavy shaft but with my compound I don't need it. You don't need a ton of foot pounds of kinetic energy to kill Whitetail and my bows will kill any big game animal in North America. Just my thoughts on the subject and I'm not saying anyone is wrong with their opinions on the subject I'm just stating facts that I have observe over 40 years of bow hunting and working and setting up bows.

Explain then the rise in animal wounding rates since bow hunting went more main stream and arrows got lighter. ( I think it's an actual statistic ) I know it works when it works, light arrows that is, and everyone doesn't need to be shooting 600gr at deer but if we all increase arrow weight some and use fixed blades or CoC heads we can start moving the big picture back, and start reducing the wounding rates. Just a quick question, do you think you ever had poor arrow performance? I know I've had wounded deer in the past that I'm pretty sure the arrow I'll be shooting next year would have prevented, and not just this past year. What broadhead do you shoot? Have you ever wounded a deer? Whats your max hunting range? I know your not new at bow hunting, so I ask these questions with the ut most respect. I'm just trying to get an idea for myself if we could all lower the wounding statistic shooting heavy arrows alone, or is it going to take more as a community to reverse the trend? Also what are the main obstacles to folks moving in a direction to reduce overall wounding rates if the data( should we choose to accept that it's accurate) shows us that this change would put us on the path to changing things in bow hunting?

 

[mattfish]

I posted some thoughts on another thread yesterday. So please excuse me if you have already read it.


“I think the heavy arrow info being shared so widespread is great. The number of archers it has inspired to experiment and learn more about their equipment is also great.

I am by no means an expert bow mechanic or archer. I do however read, study, experiment, and tinker regularly with my compound bows.

If I had one concern regarding the influx of info regarding a switch to higher FOC , is there isn’t enough focus on fundamentals.

Knowing/ improving the basics is paramount to achieving the desired results. Making an effort to be intimately familiar with your weapon and it’s operation will serve all who wish to experiment with increasing FOC very well. This should be done before attempting it for ones own sanity and best results.

I know it will be sac religious to say it but I saw a RF video where he down plays the techy stuff. Kinda makes me cringe considering the widespread viewership of his videos.

I love THP as well. However a statement made in the video with the RF about not worrying about the angle an animal is at because of EFOC also made me cringe.

Interpretation of a statement can be applied very differently by a wide range of people. That’s why I would like to see more emphasis on knowing your bow, it’s tune, and proper form.

There is a great video available at Lancaster Archery called Self Reliant Bowhunter. It goes into great detail on how to set up , tune and maintain a compound bow.”

Reply

 

[Apex7]

Explain then the rise in animal wounding rates since bow hunting went more main stream and arrows got lighter. ( I think it's an actual statistic ) I know it works when it works, light arrows that is, and everyone doesn't need to be shooting 600gr at deer but if we all increase arrow weight some and use fixed blades or CoC heads we can start moving the big picture back, and start reducing the wounding rates. Just a quick question, do you think you ever had poor arrow performance? I know I've had wounded deer in the past that I'm pretty sure the arrow I'll be shooting next year would have prevented, and not just this past year. What broadhead do you shoot? Have you ever wounded a deer? Whats your max hunting range? I know your not new at bow hunting, so I ask these questions with the ut most respect. I'm just trying to get an idea for myself if we could all lower the wounding statistic shooting heavy arrows alone, or is it going to take more as a community to reverse the trend? Also what are the main obstacles to folks moving in a direction to reduce overall wounding rates if the data( should we choose to accept that it's accurate) shows us that this change would put us on the path to changing things in bow hunting?

Blame it on the bow setup. I don't think so maybe blame it on poor shot placement. Look at when somebody wounds a deer with a new broadhead that they're using it's always the broadheads fault not shot placement. I belong to a big group that hunts suburban areas and we log all deer that are taken and if a deer is wounded the hunter has to log what happened and it is usually shot placemen. If you have enough kinetic energy out of your setup and you wound a deer it is shot placement.

 

[Sipsey]

There was a young fellow years back that hunted with a compund set at 90lbs. He was an unusual fellow in many ways. He killed and wounded more deer than anyone in the club. When our limits were quite liberal he killed more than 20 deer a year, yet he had many that he did not recover. It wasn’t because of lack of penetration.

 

[CptFrank]

I know it will be sac religious to say it but I saw a RF video where he down plays the techy stuff. Kinda makes me cringe considering the widespread viewership of his videos.

I love THP as well. However a statement made in the video with the RF about not worrying about the angle an animal is at because of EFOC also made me cringe.

To be fair i can remember a THP video 2 years ago probably where Aaron kills a quartering in buck that died within sight, and he says that he took the shot because he has a long draw length and he was confident his arrow would get through the shoulder. I'm not an expert and this is anecdotal evidence at best, but at least they put their money where their mouth is.

 

[mattfish]

To be fair i can remember a THP video 2 years ago probably where Aaron kills a quartering in buck that died within sight, and he says that he took the shot because he has a long draw length and he was confident his arrow would get through the shoulder. I'm not an expert and this is anecdotal evidence at best, but at least they put their money where their mouth is.

His statement makes me cringe.

My point is there are tons of new to bow hunting folks out there watching the content that is on all sorts of media. Many of those folks absorb the information out there not recognizing their limitations. Either in skill, knowledge or experience. They take this info having not focused on fundamentals and go out and try to apply it.


If we teach/focus on the fundamentals to each other there are less animals wounded, more Bowhunters posting there Happy pics with big sh@$ eating grins!

 

[Gamover06]

His statement makes me cringe.

My point is there are tons of new to bow hunting folks out there watching the content that is on all sorts of media. Many of those folks absorb the information out there not recognizing their limitations. Either in skill, knowledge or experience. They take this info having not focused on fundamentals and go out and try to apply it.


If we teach/focus on the fundamentals to each other there are less animals wounded, more Bowhunters posting there Happy pics with big sh@$ eating grins!

Angle shots with higher FOC or high point weight will be more lethal then a low FOC or low point weight. The heavier weight will help to stop a deflection and keep the arrow on course and drive into the body. Should he be advising people to shoot angle shots probably not but considering he shoots COC and high FOC he will have a higher percentage shot then a low FOC or Point weight and an expandable. Front deploying broadheads have an even higher rate of deflection because they have the ability to start to deploy the blades and the blade (if the broadhead is turned right) can kick itself away from the animal (not saying it happens all the time but it has the ability to).

As for THP if he said he took the shot because he has a long draw well that is BS and more explanation needed to happen. Long draw means nothing if your pulling 50 pounds, 300 grain arrow and an expandable broadhead. Not every hunter will be perfect in everything they say so people need to use whats between their ears before they take on sentence and apply it in hunting situations.

Back to original statement 200 grain vs 300 grain...…...ahhhhhhhh you really wrote that @TJutte . I mean yes if everything is equal it does not take any brains at all to know you want the arrow flying 300 FPS BUT I will take a arrow weighting 580 grains going 260 FPS over a 400 grain arrow going 300 FPS any day of the week and twice on hump day. RF has talked about speed and the difference or light arrow going fast vs a heavy arrow going slower. Might want to re watch some videos. Ashby was using a stick bow so speed didn't really play as big of a factor considering speed is already slow compared to a compound.

 

[CptFrank]

As for THP if he said he took the shot because he has a long draw well that is BS and more explanation needed to happen. Long draw means nothing if your pulling 50 pounds, 300 grain arrow and an expandable broadhead. Not every hunter will be perfect in everything they say so people need to use whats between their ears before they take on sentence and apply it in hunting situations.

I didnt mean to say his explanation was draw length is proportional to kinetic energy, just part of why he felt he had enough power. I am also paraphrasing a video from two years ago so i dont want to misrepresent anyone.

 

[ricky racer]

Blame it on the bow setup. I don't think so maybe blame it on poor shot placement. Look at when somebody wounds a deer with a new broadhead that they're using it's always the broadheads fault not shot placement. I belong to a big group that hunts suburban areas and will long all deer that are taken and if a deer is wounded the hunter has to log what happened and it is shot. If you have enough kinetic energy out of your setup and you wound a deer it is shot placement.

There are a lot of things we can control as hunters and some things we can't. Shot placement is one thing we can't. As much as we'd like to think we can control it, the fact is we can only attempt to control it.
Probably 90% of the time we shoot at a deer, the deer reacts to the sound of our bow and moves before the arrow gets there. That's why we shoot at the lower third of the deer. How much the deer moves, deflection of the arrow slightly off of a twig we didn't see or just a little to much adrenaline can all affect shot placement. In bow hunting shot placement is random, not absolute.
When shot placement is not optimal, that's where a better penetrating arrow combination is worth it's weight in gold.

 

[Apex7]

There are a lot of things we can control as hunters and some things we can't. Shot placement is one thing we can't. As much as we'd like to think we can control it, the fact is we can only attempt to control it.
Probably 90% of the time we shoot at a deer, the deer reacts to the sound of our bow and moves before the arrow gets there. That's why we shoot at the lower third of the deer. How much the deer moves, deflection of the arrow slightly off of a twig we didn't see or just a little to much adrenaline can all affect shot placement. In bow hunting shot placement is random, not absolute.
When shot placement is not optimal, that's where a better penetrating arrow combination is worth it's weight in gold.

If I thought that I had no control of my shot placement 90% of the time I would stop bow hunting. If you learn when to shoot and see what the animal is doing. Is it alert or is it calm that's what you need to look at. If we would wait for the best shot opportunity instead of worrying about is this deer going to leave before I get a shot we would wound less deer. A heavy arrow won't make you a better shot and it won't make up for a bad hit period. That's all I have to say on this subject and that's my opinion and only my opinion. Thank you

 

[Weldabeast]

As for THP if he said he took the shot because he has a long draw well that is BS and more explanation needed to happen.

I don't think anyone needs to explain why they choose to shoot.....yes there are moral guidelines all hunters should live up to but at the end of the day you are the one to live with your decision....I've made some shots I probably shouldn't have and i learned from those experiences.

 

[Gamover06]

I don't think anyone needs to explain why they choose to shoot.....yes there are moral guidelines all hunters should live up to but at the end of the day you are the one to live with your decision....I've made some shots I probably shouldn't have and i learned from those experiences.

Yes I agree I don't think people need to explain it either but if you choose to give an explanation then don't use long draw as your reason and not explain more because that is just not enough information and can be miss leading to people that might not know better.

 

[Kurt]

I agree that solid fundamentals and conservative shot distance and shot angle selection is also a key to lowering wounding rates. I got into bow hunting because of the close nature of the sport.I'm surprised at how far a lot of guys shoot. No judgement at all but long ranges on deer make me nervous. I know how wound up they can be sometimes when they feel like something is afoot( the deer that is). I'd rather have that target at 12yds way more than the same target at 35yds. I've been participating long enough to make every mistake in the book, so I know my limitations. The most important thing I like to tell the young bow hunters that I get into conversations with is that it's ok to watch one walk if things aren't right for some reason. I also agree that heavy arrows are not an excuse to start taking less than ideal shots. I'll say that again. Heavy arrows are not an excuse to start taking bad shots. For me, if I can't get the deer inside 25yds at the proper angle they walk. Easier said than done I know, but I've done it, and it does suck, but that's the game for me.
I thought I knew a lot about my archery equipment until I realized I didn't know enough. I always took the time to know my bow, and I know I'm not the best fundamentally. I learned how bad I was when I started paper tuning. But I didn't know I didn't know so little about my arrows down to the component/construction level, until they failed. Now I know. Knowing more about the weapon I use to take the life of an animal that I have grown up with the greatest respect for, leaves me HAVING to make changes as I become aware of shortcomings both in my knowledge of my equipment, and my shooting form and target engagement. There's more than one way to skin a cat, as long as I did everything in my power to make sure that cat was killed in the most humane way possible, skin away. PS In no way was the last statement an endorsement to go out and kill a bunch of cats....just sayin.

 

[mattfish]

Sad world when you have to clarify your statement on the assassination of cats! Lol

 

[Weldabeast]

Everybody makes mistakes....but all of our end goal is to make our game die and quickly as possible. Shot angle and placement are hard to learn because we don't have deer walking around all the time. Pics and video will give u an idea of what's going to happen once a live one is within range. Anatomy of your intended target should be sheared into ur brain. The heavy arrows will preform x100s better for those weird shot angle.

Side note: the ezv sight has helped me with invisioning in my mind's eye the vital ball ....once your brain understands that ''ball'' and it's center it makes quartering shots easier for me

 

[Weldabeast]

When I was first learning most info tells you to aim back off shoulder.......watch the impact area in this video and most whitetail info says they are aiming in the wrong spot

 

[kyler1945]

In addition to a faster arrow encountering more resistance from the animal on impact, which is fact....

From what I can tell, and this is by no means scientific, but plenty of anecdotal evidence points to it... faster arrows are louder. And an object moving at a deer making more noise, is more likely to alert that deer to danger and cause it to duck and run, than one that's quieter.

Three data points on this: A - watching videos in slomo that show deer not reacting to the sound of the bow, but to the movement/sound of the arrow traveling towards them. And B - watching countless deer shot at with a trad bow that didn't move until the arrow struck them, or the ground or brush near them. And C - listening to arrows traveling 300fps+ and arrows traveling 250fps or less.

 

[Allegheny Tom]

Even a near perfect shot on a slightly quartering away deer can result in no exit hole. Yeah, the deer will die and probably die quickly. But the blood trail may suck without an exit hole. Ask me how I know.
Even the most skilled archer, that knows deer mannerisms and when to shoot, WILL hit heavy bone eventually...it maybe upon entrance, or maybe on the far side, but hunt long enough and you're gonna hit bone.



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