The Heavy Arrow Movement is Flawed

[Kurt]

There are a lot of things we can control as hunters and some things we can't. Shot placement is one thing we can't. As much as we'd like to think we can control it, the fact is we can only attempt to control it.
Probably 90% of the time we shoot at a deer, the deer reacts to the sound of our bow and moves before the arrow gets there. That's why we shoot at the lower third of the deer. How much the deer moves, deflection of the arrow slightly off of a twig we didn't see or just a little to much adrenaline can all affect shot placement. In bow hunting shot placement is random, not absolute.
When shot placement is not optimal, that's where a better penetrating arrow combination is worth it's weight in gold.

As hunters our effective target is larger than a dime, ( what it takes to kill the animal cleanly), we should be aiming at a spot the size of a dime or smaller, but I agree that we as a general rule under the situational parameters of hunting scenarios are not punching dime size targets consistently. So the question is how far off target is too far off?I was hunting New York one year and had a doe and two skippers come in. I killed the doe in what was to be my first shot at a live deer over 20 yds. At 25 yds I center punched her and watched her go down. The skippers bolted but I was able to get them to come back in on a bleat call. I had one of those skippers nearly standing exactly where Momma was standing. The only difference was that that skipper was coming to a call and looking for Momma. I watched that arrow go through the nape of that deers neck. She ducked and turned so far so fast that she actually fell down and rolled over to get back up to take off. Tracked her through 300yds of golden rod before the blood specks I was following dried up. I had a buck come into a call. He was wired. He turned to go out and gave me a quartering shot at just under 25yds. I hit him at what looked to me to be the base of his left antler. He dropped and turned so fast and so far that I couldn't believe where I hit him. Now I thought Maybe I caught a branch, but I am 100% sure that that deer moved down and away. Lesson for me was that 25 yds is too far of a shot when a deer is on alert at all. Do they all move and drop that much that fast every time? No. But it was enough for me to make a rule for myself. Is a heavy arrow going to change that deer wounding? I doubt it. I think rarely is our target exactly where it was when we released, but we're in the ball park when the arrow gets there. Good enough....until it's not. Now's the time I'll be looking for some insurance.

 

[CptFrank]

Three data points on this: A - watching videos in slomo that show deer not reacting to the sound of the bow, but to the movement/sound of the arrow traveling towards them

Out of curiosity, what makes you say that deer are reacting to the arrow not the bow? i would think this would be hard to identify even as anecdotal evidence.

 

[Weldabeast]

I haven't shot at a bunch of animals but the ones I have and missed they were all high.....better to miss low

 

[Allegheny Tom]

If I thought that I had no control of my shot placement 90% of the time I would stop bow hunting. If you learn when to shoot and see what the animal is doing. Is it alert or is it calm that's what you need to look at. If we would wait for the best shot opportunity instead of worrying about is this deer going to leave before I get a shot we would wound less deer. A heavy arrow won't make you a better shot and it won't make up for a bad hit period. That's all I have to say on this subject and that's my opinion and only my opinion. Thank you

Define a bad shot.
Are you talking about a bad choice of when the shot is attempted?
Or are you talking about bad aiming/shooting skills?
Or are you taking about a bad hit?
All 3 of those questions can, or cannot necessarily be, mutually exclusive. Any combination of them can happen on the same shot.
And crap happens. We CAN control a lot, but we also can't control what happens as the string is released and an otherwise great shot can turn out to be a bad hit. In those situations, a heavy arrow can make the difference in a quick recovery, or days beating the brush doing a body search.


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[Kurt]

When I was first learning most info tells you to aim back off shoulder.......watch the impact area in this video and most whitetail info says they are aiming in the wrong spot

In the very beginning of the video that animals bone structure can be seen through the flesh and skin, showing perfectly the vital "V". Nice one. Looks like the aim point is further forward than what I would be comfortable with using lighter arrows or mechanicals, or even further forward than I was taught when I started out. My aim point was always at the crease or just back of the crease on broadside shots.

 

[PEEJAY]

In addition to a faster arrow encountering more resistance from the animal on impact, which is fact....

From what I can tell, and this is by no means scientific, but plenty of anecdotal evidence points to it... faster arrows are louder. And an object moving at a deer making more noise, is more likely to alert that deer to danger and cause it to duck and run, than one that's quieter.

Three data points on this: A - watching videos in slomo that show deer not reacting to the sound of the bow, but to the movement/sound of the arrow traveling towards them. And B - watching countless deer shot at with a trad bow that didn't move until the arrow struck them, or the ground or brush near them. And C - listening to arrows traveling 300fps+ and arrows traveling 250fps or less.

how can you tell in a video (even in slomo) if the deer is reacting to the noise of the bow or the arrow coming towards them. Reaction time to the bow is not instantaneous and in real time an arrow hits a deer going pretty fast for them to react. even if the arrow made 0 noise, a whitetail's reaction time to the bow is insane

 

[ricky racer]

how can you tell in a video (even in slomo) if the deer is reacting to the noise of the bow or the arrow coming towards them. Reaction time to the bow is not instantaneous and in real time an arrow hits a deer going pretty fast for them to react. even if the arrow made 0 noise, a whitetail's reaction time to the bow is insane

I don't know about hearing the arrow but faster bows are louder, as a general rule, than slower bows.

 

[TJutte]

Faster bows allow us to shoot heavier arrows for more penetration. If we all shoot 8 grains per pound (just an example) that puts all us 70# guys at a respectable 560 grains. The variable missing is speed, a 175 FPS 560 gr arrow is just irresponsible. Instead of spending $200 on bishop broadheads, $100 on a dozen Easton Axis, $25 for FOBs and another wad on lumenoks and inserts, the average guy would be better off spending cash on a faster bow and some protein powder.

Here’s a chart I used to use in my stand with an old arrow build. Made with basic trigonometry, microsoft excel and archers advantage. For guys who dont trust their angle calculated range finder (because golf ball trajectory isnt arrow trajectory)

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[TJutte]

Second side

Too poor for VIP


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[TJutte]

I don't know about hearing the arrow but faster bows are louder, as a general rule, than slower bows.

Heavy arrows 100% make bows of any speed quieter. More energy is transferred into the arrow, and less vibrations are left in the bow after firing


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[PEEJAY]

I don't know about hearing the arrow but faster bows are louder, as a general rule, than slower bows.

The post i was quoting said you could see the deer reacting to the arrow noise not the bow. I was just saying it would be hard to tell even in slomo what the deer is actually reacting to. In my opinion its usually the bow going off.

I know you said as a general rule, but a faster bow shooting a heavy arrow could definently be quieter than a slower bow shooting a 320gn arrow.

 

[Allegheny Tom]

There are several similar threads discussing heavy arrow and high FOC. Lots of guys on all sides of the discussion. Some are long time bowhunters that have been doing this stuff from the late 1960s/early 70s.
There are also <10 year guys chiming in that think they are experienced.
And then we have Dr Ed Ashby. Not one of us can make a pimple on his rear end when it comes to arrow lethality.
Some of us read/watch just a few of his reports/videos and then they make judgments. The value of speed and KE are just a couple of penetration aspects that a lot of guys just don't understand.

Ashby uses a bunch of physics that is way out of my pay grade. Physics terms like "force" is never mentioned in these threads.
All due respect to all you guys, but I would advise everyone to get fully read-up on all the Ashby stuff, ALL OF IT, before they form opinions.

 

[IkemanTX]

All I know is that the 360gr arrow I was shooting out of my 70lb bow didn’t come close to blowing out the back of my Block target....

The 660gr arrow I am working on right now keeps blowing 6-8 inches out the back side of the same almost new Block. I had to turn it sideways for the extra inch or two of depth, and I am still going to have to repair a big patch of drywall after all this is said and done.

Even without a broadhead on there... the penetration difference has been astounding. My bow has also quieted down drastically. Looks like my trajectory will still allow me 50 yards worth of pins in my sight EASILY. I don’t even shoot to 30, so all that is superfluous anyways. I’m not saying heavy is the end-all/be-all of setups, but for me it looks to be making a huge difference.

I am slowly paper tuning my bow to get it as tuned as I can before deciding on and building out a dozen arrows, but this whole flying around the country for work thing keeps getting in the way. Once they shut the skies down, I’ll have enough time to get everything dialed in.


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[kyler1945]

how can you tell in a video (even in slomo) if the deer is reacting to the noise of the bow or the arrow coming towards them. Reaction time to the bow is not instantaneous and in real time an arrow hits a deer going pretty fast for them to react. even if the arrow made 0 noise, a whitetail's reaction time to the bow is insane

What does a bow shot sound like to a deer from 20-30 yards away? Ever hunted in palmettos? Ever done it when acorns are falling? In many instances that sound can be significantly louder than many bows. Compounded by the fact it could be 5-10' away from the deer. If a deer reacted, and when I say reacted, I mean "ducking the string" and bounding away, every time it heard a noise equivalent to a bow shot in the woods where I hunt, the deer would never stop jumping. Deer encounter sounds of that decibel level, and sharpness, every time a branch falls out of a tree. Trees creak and pop all the time.

Is it different on a cold crisp morning with no sound, sure. Has a deer ever reacted to the sound of a bow shot? Of course, especially the closer they are to you. But I've watch a bunch of shots/reactions before voicing this opinion. And I repeat it's an opinion.

You can also see a different reaction in a deer 5 yards away and 30 yards away often times too. At five yards, they're ducking immediately upon sound hitting their ears, but the arrow is already on target. At 30 yards, you'll see them come to alert(ears forward, looking in the direction of the sound), freezing, and then ducking and bounding. If they were reacting to the shot sound only, they'd waste no time freezing to identify the sound.

Not really the thread to get this deep into the point.

I'm just pointing out that there's tradeoffs to everything. A faster arrow will encounter more resistance when it impacts it's target. And a loud arrow in flight is, at the very least equal to, but more likely in my estimation, worse than a quiet one when it comes to the reaction of the deer. Fast arrows get louder.

 

[ricky racer]

All I know is that the 360gr arrow I was shooting out of my 70lb bow didn’t come close to blowing out the back of my Block target....

The 660gr arrow I am working on right now keeps blowing 6-8 inches out the back side of the same almost new Block. I had to turn it sideways for the extra inch or two of depth, and I am still going to have to repair a big patch of drywall after all this is said and done.

Even without a broadhead on there... the penetration difference has been astounding. My bow has also quieted down drastically. Looks like my trajectory will still allow me 50 yards worth of pins in my sight EASILY. I don’t even shoot to 30, so all that is superfluous anyways. I’m not saying heavy is the end-all/be-all of setups, but for me it looks to be making a huge difference.

I am slowly paper tuning my bow to get it as tuned as I can before deciding on and building out a dozen arrows, but this whole flying around the country for work thing keeps getting in the way. Once they shut the skies down, I’ll have enough time to get everything dialed in.


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Amen!!

 

[ricky racer]

It's often times hard to tell how loud our own bows are when we shoot at a deer in the woods. If you've ever hunted in close proximity with a buddy in the same woods and you hear him shoot at a deer, you'll have a pretty good idea how loud his bow is. I've hunted with friends in Michigan's expansive National Forests for decades. I've had them shoot deer, easily 100 yards away from me and heard the shot from the bow. You kind of jump up and grab your bow in case something ends up running past you. Kind of like gun season, just not as loud.

 

[Weldabeast]

The first set I made venturing into foc arrows were around 520gr. I was at a local shop/backyard shed for a string and tune and when it got to paper tune time we were shooting inside the works shed at a target he had set up. He told me my arrows were no good...too slow. He handed me an arrow with standard aluminium insert and 100gr tip. The bow sounded like a .22 inside that small building. I asked him wasn't being quite an advantage......he looked at me like I was stupid. I paid him for the string/and tune and I haven't been to a shop since.

 

[PEEJAY]

What does a bow shot sound like to a deer from 20-30 yards away? Ever hunted in palmettos? Ever done it when acorns are falling? In many instances that sound can be significantly louder than many bows. Compounded by the fact it could be 5-10' away from the deer. If a deer reacted, and when I say reacted, I mean "ducking the string" and bounding away, every time it heard a noise equivalent to a bow shot in the woods where I hunt, the deer would never stop jumping. Deer encounter sounds of that decibel level, and sharpness, every time a branch falls out of a tree. Trees creak and pop all the time.

Is it different on a cold crisp morning with no sound, sure. Has a deer ever reacted to the sound of a bow shot? Of course, especially the closer they are to you. But I've watch a bunch of shots/reactions before voicing this opinion. And I repeat it's an opinion.

You can also see a different reaction in a deer 5 yards away and 30 yards away often times too. At five yards, they're ducking immediately upon sound hitting their ears, but the arrow is already on target. At 30 yards, you'll see them come to alert(ears forward, looking in the direction of the sound), freezing, and then ducking and bounding. If they were reacting to the shot sound only, they'd waste no time freezing to identify the sound.

Not really the thread to get this deep into the point.

I'm just pointing out that there's tradeoffs to everything. A faster arrow will encounter more resistance when it impacts it's target. And a loud arrow in flight is, at the very least equal to, but more likely in my estimation, worse than a quiet one when it comes to the reaction of the deer. Fast arrows get louder.

Not sure what you were getting at there. I agree 100% a quiet arrow is what you want and fast arrows are louder...i was only talking about a slomo video isnt really good proof of what the deer is jumping from, the arrow or the bow. A bow going off is a lot louder than an arrow in flight
In my experience Deer can tell the difference between an acorn or palmettos scratchin around and a bow or any sound that isnt normal. Ive hunted after an ice storm and all the trees were cracking loud as hell but the click of my safety turned a head up at me real quick. They go about their day for any loud noise as long as its natural.

Kinda getting off topic i guess

 

[kyler1945]

Not sure what you were getting at there. I agree 100% a quiet arrow is what you want and fast arrows are louder...i was only talking about a slomo video isnt really good proof of what the deer is jumping from, the arrow or the bow. A bow going off is a lot louder than an arrow in flight
In my experience Deer can tell the difference between an acorn or palmettos scratchin around and a bow or any sound that isnt normal. Ive hunted after an ice storm and all the trees were cracking loud as hell but the click of my safety turned a head up at me real quick. They go about their day for any loud noise as long as its natural.

Kinda getting off topic i guess

why didn’t that Deer that heard your safety duck and bound away immediately upon hearing it?

 

[BigAl]

All I know is that the 360gr arrow I was shooting out of my 70lb bow didn’t come close to blowing out the back of my Block target....

The 660gr arrow I am working on right now keeps blowing 6-8 inches out the back side of the same almost new Block. I had to turn it sideways for the extra inch or two of depth, and I am still going to have to repair a big patch of drywall after all this is said and done.

Even without a broadhead on there... the penetration difference has been astounding. My bow has also quieted down drastically. Looks like my trajectory will still allow me 50 yards worth of pins in my sight EASILY. I don’t even shoot to 30, so all that is superfluous anyways. I’m not saying heavy is the end-all/be-all of setups, but for me it looks to be making a huge difference.

I am slowly paper tuning my bow to get it as tuned as I can before deciding on and building out a dozen arrows, but this whole flying around the country for work thing keeps getting in the way. Once they shut the skies down, I’ll have enough time to get everything dialed in.


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If there are any reasonable arguments here that more foc and arrow weight total is not more lethal.....I don't understand how. 40 yrs of archery hunting.....seen speed take over archery hunting.....I even got caught up in it. 55 lbs ....2117 aluminum arrow and 150 grain broadhead....1981. Blew through deer for the most part. I think that sharp broadheads and stiff arrows at least 500gr is a good place for most people to see a difference in performance on ANIMALS. I want to kill and FIND the animal. Sorry if that is strong but I want to hunt and get what I'm hunting for and I remember what I had 40 years ago and I think that we can have a balanced approach to speed and penetration. Oh yeah.....Dr. Ashby has studied this extensively. Just my 2 cents. Have fun!