Ok i see what your sayin
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The Heavy Arrow Movement is Flawed
- Thread starter TJutte
- Start date
debowhunter
New Member
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- Dec 10, 2018
- Messages
- 32
Your mention of 2117 brings back fond memories from my set up in the 80's. An overdraw and arrows cut short to get 180 fps big speed back then. I can add some real world expiernce. I have a short draw length of 26.5",never shot an arrow over 400 grains. I have shot to date 207 deer 56 being bucks. Only a hand full have not been pass throughs by hitting opposite shoulder or those down though the top into the spine. My set up the last 8 years have been a 362 gr. arrow with cheap eBay shwackers that I sharpen up. This set up has taken out about 30 or so. They blow though everything I shoot. I find the trends interesting. It is fun to experiment. At the end of the day find what works for you and practice practice practice. Nice to see another old guy here.
As a new hunter using only a bow, I am following this. I have read all of ashby and watched a lot of RF. I have also read other stuff, but keep coming back to the ashby reports - I mean he has just killed so many big animals and I am starting a journey into traditional bowhunting.
Just my 2 cents: practice will improve shot placement. I try to slang a few, or more than a few, arrows everyday, from different distances and angles, in my saddle and on the ground, seated, standing, and/or kneeling. I miss some days, and others I shoot until I am tired. That's a benefit of the quarantine, I guess. I know very little about arrows and arrow flight and learning those things from a few youtube videos is sometimes even more confusing, so I picked up a few mentors. Invaluable. I am older than the average "newb" bowhunter (46 years in July), but I think a lot of folks will simply hit the big chain stores and buy what they sell - light arrows and fast bows. That's even the strategy that was used on a THP episode when they were outfitting a new member of their team. Technology sells in the 21st century and the technology to be eeked out of bows seems to be speed (and maybe sound, but seems like speed is advertised everywhere, this is particularly true for crossbows). The speed of sound is about 1100±FPS. Some faster (human) neuronal reflex nerve impulses can reach nearly 400 FPS. Seems to me no matter what's making the noise, if it sounds strange to a prey animal (which may have even faster sympathetic neuronal responses), they are going to respond. I think RF talks about this in several of his videos.
I am going to keep reading, watching, and learning. I haven't injured and not recovered and animal yet (only one season under my belt) and I am trying to do everything in my power to not have that happen or to reduce the incidence of that as best I can.
Thanks for all the info on here guys! Much appreciated!
Just my 2 cents: practice will improve shot placement. I try to slang a few, or more than a few, arrows everyday, from different distances and angles, in my saddle and on the ground, seated, standing, and/or kneeling. I miss some days, and others I shoot until I am tired. That's a benefit of the quarantine, I guess. I know very little about arrows and arrow flight and learning those things from a few youtube videos is sometimes even more confusing, so I picked up a few mentors. Invaluable. I am older than the average "newb" bowhunter (46 years in July), but I think a lot of folks will simply hit the big chain stores and buy what they sell - light arrows and fast bows. That's even the strategy that was used on a THP episode when they were outfitting a new member of their team. Technology sells in the 21st century and the technology to be eeked out of bows seems to be speed (and maybe sound, but seems like speed is advertised everywhere, this is particularly true for crossbows). The speed of sound is about 1100±FPS. Some faster (human) neuronal reflex nerve impulses can reach nearly 400 FPS. Seems to me no matter what's making the noise, if it sounds strange to a prey animal (which may have even faster sympathetic neuronal responses), they are going to respond. I think RF talks about this in several of his videos.
I am going to keep reading, watching, and learning. I haven't injured and not recovered and animal yet (only one season under my belt) and I am trying to do everything in my power to not have that happen or to reduce the incidence of that as best I can.
Thanks for all the info on here guys! Much appreciated!
Sipsey
Well-Known Member
It seems like the old 2117’s were the most common arrow back in the day. I experimented and used a 2512 with good results. I wanted a stiffer, lighter arrow and it fit the bill. Also it set very well in the prongs on the older arrow rest. I understand the need for heavier arrows when shooting large animals. Even Fred Bear and Howard Hill used heavier arrows when they hunted bear and Elephants. To me its like the old debate over how small a caliber is too small for taking deer or how big a caliber is too big. According to some, there is no way the old Indians could possibly have been efficient at taking deer with their homemade rigs, and yet they were.
BigAl
Well-Known Member
A well placed arrow and a sharp broadhead will normally result in a passthrough the pneumothorax even with a lighter arrow. We hunt and want to be efficient with our equipment. Practice, sharp broadheads, .....good arrow flight makes a great advantage for all setups. My only addition to this great thread is that a heavy arrow might be advantageous if perhaps an errant shot may happen......what ever the reason. Bones are what heavier arrows could help penetrate and do more damage and harvest the animals. This is why I increased my arrow weight. Don't know about you guys....but even after 40 yrs I still get tore up.....shaking like a leaf. I think that I need a little advantage to a possible "errant shot". LOL
Country
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Jun 7, 2018
- Messages
- 895
Two seasons ago, I shot a buck in what I thought was right in the kitchen. When I found my arrow, I was missing my broadhead and about 3" of my arrow. Deer walked off and laughed at me. Was bummed and confused. I was pretty pumped to discover the heavy arrow, high foc theory of Dr. Ashby and Ranch Fairy's videos. Something to bring my confidence back up nonetheless. I still wish I knew what happened. I shoot 52 lbs and about 368 grain arrows. My new setup will be about 548 grains with around 20%foc. Looking forward to getting another opportunity.
You can take this as gospel...
Your target (the deer's vitals) are NOT always going to be in the same spot as they were when you released the arrow. Whether you shoot a 400fps crossbow or a 140fps primitive self bow, eventually, the deer will duck, spin, or move while the arrow is in flight. The deer position and shot execution might be perfect but its a fact that they often react and move before the arrow makes impact and those vitals are now in a different spot. Our arrow can go exactly where we aimed it but the target has moved. We cannot always control where on the deer it will strike. It COULD be heavy bone. That is the reason we shoot a heavy arrow, high FOC, and a durable broadhead.
We can practice until we can drive tacks, but we can't control the reactions of a live animal with lightning fast reflexes.
I always take notes when a killer enters the room. That's a pile of deer!
I have a few questions to maybe sharpen up your point of view so I understand it.
What broadheads did you use prior to the schwacker?
Across those 260+ deer, how many did you miss? How many did you wound and not recover?
Of the ones you wounded/unrecoverable, how many, to the best of your knowledge, was the arrow on a path to hitting vital organs, but bone/lack of penetration prevented that from happening?
What would you say is your average shot distance?
How many deer did you kill beyond 30 yards?
Is it fair to sum up your position as "In sending almost 300 deer to the long sleep, very few occasions arose, if any, where adding 200 grains to my arrow would have changed the outcome."
Kurt
Well-Known Member
I like these questions. All the deer I killed with a bow died, and of all the ones that I know died my recovery rate is 100%. Of the 4 or 5 that I wounded I know that a heavy arrow and maximum penetration would have helped in one case for sure, that's enough for me.
debowhunter
New Member
- Joined
- Dec 10, 2018
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- 32
Last edited:
Kurt
Well-Known Member
That's definitely a nice collection of racks.
- Joined
- Sep 27, 2018
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- 3,925
I didn’t read all the responses so forgive me if this has been covered, but it’s your logic that is flawed.
It’s useless to compare the same weight arrow going 100 FPS faster because your bow will not allow you to make the change necessary to allow that (yes, you can crank it down to 20# to get there, but let’s be adults about this and not say something just for the sake of argument). What you need to be focusing on is different weight arrows from the same setup.
Now, you take a 600gr arrow shot from your bow and it’s resulting penetration will be greater than the penetration from whatever arrow weight it takes to gain 100 FPS. That is not flawed.
ssramage
Active Member
Interesting conversation. Like a lot of people, I'm making the switch to a heavier arrow/high FOC setup this year after years of shooting 400ish gr arrows with Grim Reaper broadheads. This year I'll be somewhere in the 550gr range at hunting weight, probably toting a Slick Trick of some variant.
Kurt
Well-Known Member
Guys are adding weight to the front and some are able to use the same shafts. I was one who decided to go to a stiffer shaft because I had decided to stay away from any aluminum components. Then I fell in love with the 200gr Masai head and the next thing I knew I was at adding 380gr up front, 690gr. total. I know you'll like the way the heavier arrow shoots. Keep us posted how your build goes.
ssramage
Active Member
My setup right now, assuming that doesn't change is going to be Black Eagle Carnivores, cut to 30" with a 100gr brass insert and a 100-125gr fixed blade. Total weight will be in the 535-560gr range with 14-15% FOC. I've shot them in the yard with 100gr field tips and broadheads and they shoot really well. Coming from .340 spined Gold Tips, I was having really erratic arrow flight with broadheads. The heavier arrows and stiffer spines have calmed that WAY down.
I've been shooting grizz sticks for about the last 6 years. I've probably killed 4 bucks and 8-10 does in that stretch with these arrows and fixed blade 100 grain 2 blade broadhead. Its typically been a Magnus Stinger. The buck in my profile picture succumbed to this set-up at 52 yards, heart shot and he made it 35 yards. Finished arrow weight is right around 550, with a bow speed in the 240-250 range. The other thing a heavy arrow will do for you is make your set-up that much quieter. I get comments all the time when shooting a 3-D shoot or at the range how quiet my bow is. All of those deer since I have made the switch to heavier arrow have died within site typically 35-60 yards, and most don't realize they are hit. That energy carries through the deer and I haven't not had a complete pass through yet. To me proof is in the pudding, you don't need speed or micro-diameter arrows and expandable broadheads with giant cutting widths to kill most north american big game such as deer, elk, and black bear. Watch these videos on TV and you will note those shooting fast bows and expandable broadheads rarely get a complete pass through. My thought is I want two holes in these animals especially when shooting from an elevated position. I lost a really big 11 point when I decided to switched to a heavy arrow and two blade broadheads. Deer was at 12 yards, I wasn't all that high 14-16' up in a climber. He was working a doe on Halloween morning here in SW Wisconsin. He stopped quartering away I let that VAP with an expandable on the front eat, it was slightly high but I hit the off leg/shoulder. Being he was close the angle was fairly steep, he ran off down a ravine and disappeared. I could see the blood trail out to 60 yards from the tree. I will give those large expandables can give you amazing blood trails. I let that deer lay for over 2 hours I was convinced he was dead on that hillside I was waiting on my brother in law to come help once he got done with cows that morning, so I just sat and enjoyed the morning. I walked to edge of the ravine that he crossed and could see the painted blood trail going up the other side into some short white pines. I proceeded down the hill and up the other side convinced he was piled up in those pines. I was bent over and following the trail when that buck jumped up and disappeared down the ridge. I was speechless at the time I was convinced that deer was dead and that I had a pass through (I never found that arrow). We left him for another 4 hours, the blood was pink, with bubbles so I knew I had lung. The only thing I could figure was since he was close and the angle maybe the deer rolled slightly and dropped and maybe I only got one lung or the top of one and mid line of the other. He ran kiddy corner through a 160 acre block of timber down a ravine and up the other side, really only bleeding going up hill. We finally caught up to him again around 3-4 pm that afternoon in some set-aside grass and he ran down that same ravine again and around a pond. I left him go, talked with the neighbors and got permission to track him the next afternoon, he got on a mowed path and the blood ran out and I never saw that deer again. I don't know if he died, he may have later that week who knows. My point is I switched after that experience and never looked back, that buck was the 3rd or 4th deer I lost with those fast set-up and light arrows I was done. All appeared to be great shots, some were my fault, I am a human at the end of the day. I wanted to eliminate the potential errors in my equipment and I would work on me. Like I said since that time a new bow and heavy arrow set-up I haven't looked back. Sorry for the long winded story just wanted to give a real world example of my experience. Think of that heavy FOC arrow pulling that arrow through the deer, not pushing it. Like I said I want two holes, had I had a pass through on that buck I am convinced he would have died, he knew he was hurt and laid down very quickly but since I didn't get up and push him he was able to seal up and not die. Good luck everyone this fall, now is the time to prepare your arrows and set-ups, confidence in you and your equipment is paramount.
I use a 405 grain arrow and it works. I have been bow hunting 49 years and I have went from wood to aluminum to carbon arrows and they all worked. My setup is what I like to use and if your setup works more power to you . We can go round and round about arrow weights. Use what you like and what gets the job done.
Kaskadian
New Member
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- Nov 13, 2019
- Messages
- 32
I’m not judging anyone’s setup - shoot whatever makes you all happy. That being said I am a firm believer in shooting fixed blade > mechanicals regardless of what weight arrow you choose to shoot.
I shoot 750 gr arrows from a 31” DL/60# bow. I’ve got my bow sighted in out to 60 yards which was as easy as shooting 20/60 and putting on the correct speed tape. Are my arrows slower? Absolutely. I genuinely do not care about speed at the ranges I shoot - if trad guys can kill animals with 140-170 FPS I think I’ll be okay.
Almost every single animal I’ve harvested was 30 yards or under with the majority being 15-25 yards. The number of animals I’ve taken shots on past 30 yards I can likely count on one hand. I follow the leg up and put it on a heart shot and I either hit heart or they jump the string and I end up with double lung. Shooting significantly slower speeds hasn’t effected that. The primary change has been complete pass through shots on every single animal I’ve shot regardless of what’s in the way (bones, etc).
I’m completely sold and I have no plans to go back to light/fast arrows. I use the same setup I’m using now on everything I hunt - whitetail, hogs, elk, turkey, and hopefully moose this fall if that works out.
I shoot 750 gr arrows from a 31” DL/60# bow. I’ve got my bow sighted in out to 60 yards which was as easy as shooting 20/60 and putting on the correct speed tape. Are my arrows slower? Absolutely. I genuinely do not care about speed at the ranges I shoot - if trad guys can kill animals with 140-170 FPS I think I’ll be okay.
Almost every single animal I’ve harvested was 30 yards or under with the majority being 15-25 yards. The number of animals I’ve taken shots on past 30 yards I can likely count on one hand. I follow the leg up and put it on a heart shot and I either hit heart or they jump the string and I end up with double lung. Shooting significantly slower speeds hasn’t effected that. The primary change has been complete pass through shots on every single animal I’ve shot regardless of what’s in the way (bones, etc).
I’m completely sold and I have no plans to go back to light/fast arrows. I use the same setup I’m using now on everything I hunt - whitetail, hogs, elk, turkey, and hopefully moose this fall if that works out.
I didn't read this thread with any judgement about arrows, weights, etc. I also shoot a heavy arrow, I like that it;s quiet and I get decent flight.
A lot of animals fall to lighter faster arrows
I have read about as much of the science as I can and I do think the heavier arrows are particularly more effective for my lighter weight trad bow.
A lot of animals fall to lighter faster arrows
I have read about as much of the science as I can and I do think the heavier arrows are particularly more effective for my lighter weight trad bow.
- Joined
- Oct 10, 2018
- Messages
- 1,377
This subject of heavy vs light arrows and which one is "better" can be debated to the end of time and the only thing that everyone will agree to is continuing to disagree. Some have never had issues with fast light weight setups and some have had terrible experiences and want to try heavy. Neither setup is ideal and each has their shortcomings depending on the scenario they're used in so as individual archers we should use what we are comfortable with and confident in it's ability to dispatch game efficiently.
Using myself as an example, I have used mechanicals (spitfires, bloodtrailers and rages) on arrows weighing 415 - 440grs since 2005 and for the most part never lost an animal because of being "light" or a broadhead failure. There is one though that comes to mind that might have had a different outcome had I been "heavy"...
About 6 years ago I shot a bear at the base of my tree but hit him too far forward on the top of the shoulder and watched him run off with the arrow sticking straight up that it reminded me of the bumper cars at an amusement park with their orange flag waving above them. When I found the arrow it had maybe 4" of blood on the shaft, that's it. You can guess the rest of that story, hours of tracking a non existent blood trail and a bear that lived to see another day. There were other factors that lead to the shot hitting where it did (all operator error) but now I wonder if a heavier arrow with a stout broadhead would have brought home the win.
The last few years I have focused in on my kills and have noted a common trend, I get complete pass throughs on does but rarely on bucks and the placement of the shots are textbook confirmed by the autopsies. I've come to the conclusion that bucks are inherently tougher due to their larger bone size and denser tissue (duhhh) offering more resistance that my arrows from a 60# bow are giving up too much energy deploying the broadhead and don't have enough "ass" left to force their way to a complete pass through. I've recovered them all but I want my arrow to put two holes in game animals so that's my reason why I'm going with 611gr arrows with fixed blade broadheads this season. 30 yds is my self imposed limit I would shoot if conditions were right but in reality most of my kills have been under 20yds so the trajectory and speed penalties with heavy won't come into play the way I hunt. The benefits of going heavy far outweigh the cons in my case, hopefully I'll have an opportunity this season to prove it.
Using myself as an example, I have used mechanicals (spitfires, bloodtrailers and rages) on arrows weighing 415 - 440grs since 2005 and for the most part never lost an animal because of being "light" or a broadhead failure. There is one though that comes to mind that might have had a different outcome had I been "heavy"...
About 6 years ago I shot a bear at the base of my tree but hit him too far forward on the top of the shoulder and watched him run off with the arrow sticking straight up that it reminded me of the bumper cars at an amusement park with their orange flag waving above them. When I found the arrow it had maybe 4" of blood on the shaft, that's it. You can guess the rest of that story, hours of tracking a non existent blood trail and a bear that lived to see another day. There were other factors that lead to the shot hitting where it did (all operator error) but now I wonder if a heavier arrow with a stout broadhead would have brought home the win.
The last few years I have focused in on my kills and have noted a common trend, I get complete pass throughs on does but rarely on bucks and the placement of the shots are textbook confirmed by the autopsies. I've come to the conclusion that bucks are inherently tougher due to their larger bone size and denser tissue (duhhh) offering more resistance that my arrows from a 60# bow are giving up too much energy deploying the broadhead and don't have enough "ass" left to force their way to a complete pass through. I've recovered them all but I want my arrow to put two holes in game animals so that's my reason why I'm going with 611gr arrows with fixed blade broadheads this season. 30 yds is my self imposed limit I would shoot if conditions were right but in reality most of my kills have been under 20yds so the trajectory and speed penalties with heavy won't come into play the way I hunt. The benefits of going heavy far outweigh the cons in my case, hopefully I'll have an opportunity this season to prove it.