The Heavy Arrow Movement is Flawed

[Inconel710]

Haven't been here much lately, but I'm happy to see this discussion. I jumped all in a couple weeks ago. Got my 250/300 spine Apollo's arriving this week. Just playing around with my current Easton Bloodline 330's last weekend told me there's something to this. Couldn't get them to bare shaft paper tune, but they liked the 300gr field point a heck of a lot more than the 125!

RF mentioned filming all of your shots so I started recording my bare shaft "experiments". Slo-mo mode on my phone is awesome. You can really see the difference between shots.

 

[Deerman406]

High foc and perfect arrow flight are what it is all about. My recurves shooting 180 fps with a 420 grain arrow with 175 point weight will kill anything in NA. Same goes for my Traverse shooting a 500 grain arrow from 60#s with my short 27.5" draw and the same 175 grain head will kill anything in NA. Accuracy and perfect arrow flight and a reasonable weight arrow is what most should strive for hunting here at home. Shawn

 

[Allegheny Tom]

Have any of you guys shooting uefoc arrows seen any extreme "tail kick" during a cross wind?
Its something my buddy and I are both noticing. We are recurve guys, near 700 gain arrows are close to 30%, and A&A fletch.
We have noticed substantial kick during a cross wind.
We surmise the cause is that the tail is SO LIGHT and foc is so extreme, that the nock end just gets blown sideways a little too easily.
I suspect, in a perfect hunting situation, with little cross wind, that uefoc arrows would penetrate better. But in the real world, in our tree during a windy day, would a uefoc arrow actually have LESS penetration because of tail kick?
I still believe in heavy arrows and higher foc (over 19%), but I'm not sure about ultra extreme foc.


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[Weldabeast]

I'm at 660gr and I have not seen what u are describing....all white on my 3 fletch 2" razor feathers so I can see the arrow real well. The only thing I've noticed is certain arrows (all built identical) spin faster than others.

I dont know % but all the weight is up front 200head and 200insert

 

[Weldabeast]

Here is a neat source for arrow drop.

Arrow Ballistics Calculator - Kinetic Energy, Drop, Momentum

Up to 70 yards out of arrow ballistics information - simply provide arrow weight and speed and our calculator does the rest.

www.bestcrossbowsource.com

Rereading the earlier posts I must have missed this 1 in March.....this calculator is way off....with my input it told my my arrows drop 15" at 20yds and 34" at 30 yds.....I can guarentee between 20 and 30 my arrows only drop max 3-5 inches..... more closer to 3 than 5

 

[SnakeEater]

Have any of you guys shooting uefoc arrows seen any extreme "tail kick" during a cross wind?
Its something my buddy and I are both noticing. We are recurve guys, near 700 gain arrows are close to 30%, and A&A fletch.
We have noticed substantial kick during a cross wind.
We surmise the cause is that the tail is SO LIGHT and foc is so extreme, that the nock end just gets blown sideways a little too easily.
I suspect, in a perfect hunting situation, with little cross wind, that uefoc arrows would penetrate better. But in the real world, in our tree during a windy day, would a uefoc arrow actually have LESS penetration because of tail kick?
I still believe in heavy arrows and higher foc (over 19%), but I'm not sure about ultra extreme foc.


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I noticed this a little just recently. I was wondering why I would see the rear of the arrow kick out then I realize it was from wind and not me. I shot in high and low periods of the wind to test. Funny thing is I didn’t really see any poi deviation. May have been and inch or so at most but I was still hitting dang close to my poa. Nothing I would say was out of my normal shooting accuracy.

I’m waiting for some stronger winds to try out more and at 40+ just to see the effects.

Sent from parts unknown

 

[Allegheny Tom]

I noticed this a little just recently. I was wondering why I would see the rear of the arrow kick out then I realize it was from wind and not me. I shot in high and low periods of the wind to test. Funny thing is I didn’t really see any poi deviation. May have been and inch or so at most but I was still hitting dang close to my poa. Nothing I would say was out of my normal shooting accuracy.

I’m waiting for some stronger winds to try out more and at 40+ just to see the effects.

Sent from parts unknown

We are not having any issues with point of impact but maximum penetration requires the arrow is going perfectly straight upon impact. Excessive tail kick is not good for penetration.

 

[bowhuntinde]

I saw it with my setup. It was about a 20 mph right to left wind. Day before I was shooting darts(calm). I thought the dreaded left tear came back somehow. I knew better than to start adjusting things and just waited till it calmed down. Back to shooting darts.
Goldtip 300
275 up front with 3 3"feathers

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[MathewsMan7]

Brian from Day Six Arrows mentioned this in a podcast...he shot feathers and UEFOC for some years and one of the many reasons he started Day Six was because he noticed the combination of a lighter shaft and feathers the tail would kick in a cross wind and he mentioned that the tail would really kick if he hit any branches on the shot. He went on to discuss arrow flight some more and the importance citing Dr. Ashby and said that the thick walled, micro-diameter, heavy arrows were affected by wind the least as well as deflections on the way to the target. Again, one of a multitude of reasons he started Day Six.

 

[Homebrew454]

Rereading the earlier posts I must have missed this 1 in March.....this calculator is way off....with my input it told my my arrows drop 15" at 20yds and 34" at 30 yds.....I can guarentee between 20 and 30 my arrows only drop max 3-5 inches..... more closer to 3 than 5

I don't know the mathematics used. It is designed for crossbows but I would assume it should work for regular bows as well. Imagine there is a mistake in it some place. When I used it earlier, it seemed reliable. Inputting my arrow and bow setup it is off now too.

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[SnakeEater]

We are not having any issues with point of impact but maximum penetration requires the arrow is going perfectly straight upon impact. Excessive tail kick is not good for penetration.

Yes sir very true, I’m at 22% foc with my set up now but I’m wondering if a heavier gpi arrow will help by increasing overall weight and lower the foc a little..

Sent from parts unknown

 

[raisins]

I picked my own bow and used the below website to calculate speeds at 1,000 grain arrow all the way down to 100 grain arrow in 100 grain increments. I then calculated the momentum in kg*m/s units for each arrow and speed pair. I then calculated drop from 0 to 30 yards in inches using the other website below. It's for crossbows, so I just changed arrow length to 30 inches, should be close. Perhaps I should have calculated drop from 20 to 30 yards with a 20 yard zero. But I think I'll still get my point across.

Bow/Arrow Speed Calculator (Estimate from IBO/ATA)

// This calculator will estimate the speed of the bow/arrow based on the speed rating of the manufacturer and individual setup of the bow. Archers can use

archerycalculator.com

Arrow Ballistics Calculator - Kinetic Energy, Drop, Momentum

Up to 70 yards out of arrow ballistics information - simply provide arrow weight and speed and our calculator does the rest.

www.bestcrossbowsource.com

I then made a scatter plot with momentum on the y-axis and drop on the x-axis for each arrow. I think momentum not peaking at 1,000 grains might be due to the online speed calculator not taking into account that the bow is more efficient at higher arrow weights, meaning the speeds for the higher weight arrows are likely an underestimate. Although, it momentum must start decreasing with increased weight at some point because an arrow that weighs 500 pounds would have a velocity of 0 and therefore no momentum (extreme example to illustrate). Plot is attached. Excel wouldn't let me quickly label the points with arrow weight, but they are 1,000 grains then 900 etc moving left to right.

All of that was to make this point: there is a trade-off and some nuance and going too far in one direction probably doesn't make sense. Ranch Fairy shoots baited hogs which is very different than whitetails at unknown yardage. Once the minimum momentum is achieved for your prey animal, then you can figure out the maximum drop you can tolerate. This gives you an area on that line where you can pick your setup from. Other factors and personal preference will come into play there. For instance, my graph doesn't show that the bow is quieter with heavier arrows. I'd make the argument that on edge deer will hear and move for any bow and that calm animals don't move much even with louder bows. Also, slower arrows tune easier with broadheads.

As for me with deer, I shoot a 400 grain arrow. I have no problem shooting through deer and can use one pin from 0 to 30 yards.

 

[raisins]

We are not having any issues with point of impact but maximum penetration requires the arrow is going perfectly straight upon impact. Excessive tail kick is not good for penetration.

I suspect this is why you see so many people not shooting all the way through broadside deer even though they are pulling over 60 lbs with a 27 inch or longer draw. I see it on hunting shows regularly. A straight arrow hammers deer.

 

[raisins]

I think the main benefit a heavy arrow has is it's ability in heavy bone. If you avoid that then its benefit is mitigated. My 411 grain arrow with 1.5 inch expandable blades going 295 fps still buries 8 inches into the ground after going through the rib cage.

Having said this, I'm still thinking of going heavier this year to test a setup for elk hunting next year.

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A lot of people are thinking that they can shoot a Ranch Fairy arrow and it will give them a definite edge on heavy bone in whitetails. I'm not sure this has been tested, at least people don't with their particular setups. The main body of a vertebrae, the spine/ridge of the shoulder blade, the socket of the shoulder blade, and the upper leg bone are the only bones near the vitals that will stop a reasonably powerful and tuned arrow. Most of the shoulder blade is relatively thin and tons of people penetrate it. And I'm unsure these 700 grain single bevel jobs are getting through the heavy bone I've mentioned. It seems that it is mostly an assumption. Ranch Fairy is looking at penetration on hogs at short yardage using a light bow. I don't think he is busting the bigger bones of mature bucks.

 

[Weldabeast]

This is kinda interesting.... 40 grams = 617 grains and 45 grams = 694 grains

I dont know for sure but I think antelope would be comparable to whitetail.

 

[SnakeEater]

A lot of people are thinking that they can shoot a Ranch Fairy arrow and it will give them a definite edge on heavy bone in whitetails. I'm not sure this has been tested, at least people don't with their particular setups. The main body of a vertebrae, the spine/ridge of the shoulder blade, the socket of the shoulder blade, and the upper leg bone are the only bones near the vitals that will stop a reasonably powerful and tuned arrow. Most of the shoulder blade is relatively thin and tons of people penetrate it. And I'm unsure these 700 grain single bevel jobs are getting through the heavy bone I've mentioned. It seems that it is mostly an assumption. Ranch Fairy is looking at penetration on hogs at short yardage using a light bow. I don't think he is busting the bigger bones of mature bucks.

Research dr. Ashby and the extensive research he’s done proving this theory. He is the sole reason bow hunting is legal throughout most of Africa.


Sent from parts unknown

 

[ericabbott]

A lot of people are thinking that they can shoot a Ranch Fairy arrow and it will give them a definite edge on heavy bone in whitetails. I'm not sure this has been tested, at least people don't with their particular setups. The main body of a vertebrae, the spine/ridge of the shoulder blade, the socket of the shoulder blade, and the upper leg bone are the only bones near the vitals that will stop a reasonably powerful and tuned arrow. Most of the shoulder blade is relatively thin and tons of people penetrate it. And I'm unsure these 700 grain single bevel jobs are getting through the heavy bone I've mentioned. It seems that it is mostly an assumption. Ranch Fairy is looking at penetration on hogs at short yardage using a light bow. I don't think he is busting the bigger bones of mature bucks.

Last fall I tested some of my earlier heavy arrow builds on deer legs, shooting through the thickest joint. Single bevel (Grizzly Maasi) on a 340 FMJ split through the bone and well into the target behind with little deflection. I've since switched to a Sirius Apollo with the Ethics insert/footer, which should be even more effective.

 

[Weldabeast]

I'd like to see the heaviest/densist bones from a 200pd whitetail and a 200pd hog side by side... ..our deer aren't that big down here so I haven't ever seen 1.....I have seen bones from a 200pd hog and can say they are pretty stout

 

[SanDiegoSaddler]

Just my .02 - The amount of research that’s been conducted on arrow flight/ weight combinations for effectiveness is very hard to ignore. I shoot 562gn arrows and never worry about making the most ethical attempt to kill an animal quickly. Shooting lighter arrows with low FOC and penetration percentages should definitely be a concern for archery hunters. Sure, pass through shots with light arrows is possible. Maybe even frequent. But not in the vitals. Not through bone. Not for a quick clean kill.

I built entry-level heavy arrows last year and my local shop thought I was crazy for building them - “what are you hunting elephants?”. I shoot 60lbs and had complete pass through shots on shoulders of two deer last year. One at 20 yards that walked 30 yards and fell over. The second was at 40 yards and I split the far side rib clean in half. Arrow was buried in the dirt. That deer went 20 yards and folded up.

I’m shooting 300 spine VAP SS, 55gn outsert, 200gn single bevels. I’m confident with these arrows and eventually might start to tinker a bit more with heavier. The argument for loss of “speed” with heavy arrows is nonsensical. I don’t think “speed” should even be a consideration honestly. Perfect arrow flight, single bevel broadheads and FOC are vastly more important than any loss of “speed” anyone thinks they will lose.

 

[Fl Canopy Stalker]

Kinetic Energy=(mass) (velocity ^2)

First example =53.3 ft-lbs
Second example = 119.9 ft-lbs

That seems awesome right? How do you get a 600 grain arrow to 300 fps?

I tired to back calculate a bow poundage using a IBO speed of 350 (essentially bow/cam efficiency). I calculated that you would need to pull 94 pounds at a 30 in draw to get a 600 grain arrow to 300 fps. You also need about a 150 spine arrow (calc from Stu Millers table).

I've just made my first set of >600 grain-ers and cant wait for this fall. I am not an expert. I do think the word "flawed" might not be the right one.

For my 2013 Bear Method 27"/60lbs the difference between a 300 grain arrow and a 600 grain arrow is 0.3 ft-lbs of energy.

I have a 32” draw length and shoot 70 lbs. I’ve shot an 80 lbs hoyt with an IBO of 340ish. My 650 grain arrow was only flying consistently in the mid 240’s. Getting a 600 grain arrow to fly 300fps is almost mythical in my opinion. And the more draw weight you add the more damage you do to your shoulders and neck in the long run. It’s this reason I went back to 70lbs and will eventually like work my way down to 60 lbs for conservation as I get older.