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What Makes A Bow Accurate?

Nutterbuster said:
2nd verse, same as the first. Is the increase forgiveness worth the decreased power-stroke?
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Strike that, reverse it. In my case, I'm wondering if the increased power-stroke is worth potential losses in forgiveness.

I've never failed to get a pass through on a deer. I've shot mid 400s arrows and mechanicals. I've got through shoulder a few times, as is. My shots have been pretty accurate so as not to have hit leg bone, luckily. Don't know how that'd play out.

So, do I increase my margins with more TAW at my current or faster speeds if it's at the expense of increased error in the shot? Especially saddlehunting, where form isn't always predictable.

Can I have my cake and eat it too? (picking certain design features).

Or Is it moot, forgiveness is just a sales pitch?
 
Plebe said:
Strike that, reverse it. In my case, I'm wondering if the increased power-stroke is worth potential losses in forgiveness.

I've never failed to get a pass through on a deer. I've shot mid 400s arrows and mechanicals. I've got through shoulder a few times, as is. My shots have been pretty accurate so as not to have hit leg bone, luckily. Don't know how that'd play out.

So, do I increase my margins with more TAW at my current or faster speeds if it's at the expense of increased error in the shot? Especially saddlehunting, where form isn't always predictable.

Can I have my cake and eat it too? (picking certain design features).

Or Is it moot, forgiveness is just a sales pitch?
Click to expand...
Assuming you're buying a bow to use it as a tool to kill deer, none of it matters. Pick a budget, shoot a few bows within its range and buy what you like the looks and feel of. Shoot at 1,000 deer in the field and they'll all average out.

Of course, most of us don't buy tools for strictly utilitarian usage. We're trading dollars for pleasure. That's a much more complicated topic, and one that I can't weigh in on because I don't know what it takes to make anybody but me happy. I barely know what makes me happy.
 
I've been told that ATA/riser length and brace height and really "forgiveness " won't show up until 40+ yards. Jury is still out on that for me, but I believe that's related to my grip and the vastly different grips on my to bows
 
Nutterbuster said:
Assuming you're buying a bow to use it as a tool to kill deer, none of it matters. Pick a budget, shoot a few bows within its range and buy what you like the looks and feel of. Shoot at 1,000 deer in the field and they'll all average out.

Of course, most of us don't buy tools for strictly utilitarian usage. We're trading dollars for pleasure. That's a much more complicated topic, and one that I can't weigh in on because I don't know what it takes to make anybody but me happy. I barely know what makes me happy.
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In truth, I didn’t intend this to be about me. I was hoping there would be some consensus on design elements that effect shooter error. I just took a subjective turn because it became easier to discuss thoughts and concerns from the vantage point of my own limited experience of bow advancement and technology. You’ve probably handled hundreds of bow models. Appreciate your feedback.
 
cedar paul said:
The archer.
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This is the correct answer. Yall talking about accuracy and the bow when the answer is found in the indian behind the bow. Give John Demmer an untuned recurve and let him match the arrows for point of impact and he will out shoot 99.99% of the folks on this planet because he is controlling accuracy not the bow and not the arrows beyond selection for consistent point of impact. Accuracy is not about aiming either it is about consistent anchor and consistently clean shot break.
 
I might add after shooting a bow for 57 actual years I would add an arrow matched to the bow and to archers drawlength, poundage etc. I am a advocate of dynamic spine testing when fletching my arrows and then doing a walk back tuning to establish correct arrow rest position. I have always maintained you can string up a sapling and with a properly matched arrow with shoot very accurately. Once gear is matched an archer must develop a shot process until everything but aiming is subconscious- then the magic of archery comes alive. While most bows modern or traditional bows in a shooting machine will shoot accurately arrow after arrow the problem is when we add our human imperfections to the process. We tend to think maybe a new sight, rest or release will solve the problem but most problems can be traced to our coconut computer between our ears. While some cams and perhaps short ATA bows are contributors to a difficult shooting bow I don't think it necessarily makes it less accurate.
 
Nutterbuster said:
Of course, most of us don't buy tools for strictly utilitarian usage. We're trading dollars for pleasure. That's a much more complicated topic, and one that I can't weigh in on because I don't know what it takes to make anybody but me happy. I barely know what makes me happy.
Click to expand...

This is why I risk making everyone be annoyed with me by pointing out why we actually do some of the weird stuff we do.

If you want to find some contentment, it seems much easier to admit the strange motives behind your behavior. It explains that behavior in a much more reliable way. Why’s that important? Because you can then manage your expectations much more reliably.

As it relates to the topic, there’s almost zero chance any useful data exists. Because the motivation and incentive to gather the data goes in reverse of what you’re looking for: Mathew’s ain’t gonna sell any new bows for 1500.00 if everyone admits that whatever feature they’re marketing might give you 0.00000000000000000000001% increase in odds of success. Way better to leave the stone unturned.


You did point to maybe the only reliable data - professional archers. Whatever trends hold steady there will translate. They’re just likely not to have a strong correlation with your success because they’re so far outside an Amateur’s margin of error.

Being very precise with my arrow builds, spending time to get very very sharp broadheads, getting the bow locked down in tip top tune, + having shot maybe 20k arrows in my lifetime(allowing me to draw on instinct to shoot 95% of my best out of the gate every year) = almost all of the precision/archery hunting success I can come up with.

You could hand me any 29.5-31.5” 40lb-80lb 65-90% let off compound bow that isn’t a piece of crap that will not hold all settings and such, and I can have it shooting archers minute of angle out to 40 yards reliably. I know because I have done it with a dozen or so.

I bought my first brand new bow 3 years ago. I shoot it no differently at under 40 yards than any other I’ve owned. I feel stupid having shelled out the money now, but I guess I’ll have it for 10 years, so not too bad of an ROI

I bought a hickory creek mini 4 years ago. It showed me why what compound I shoot at whitetails doesn’t matter. Given infinite amount of time to shoot, I shoot my compound just as accurately and precise as the mini inside 40 yards with no bench. Change that to give myself 3 seconds to shoot from time I draw compound, or time I get a cheek weld with the mini, the mini gets way more accurate. No compound with any widget or measurement or feature will change that, enough to be measured inside 40 yards anyway.


@Plebe are you considering the advantages at deer hunting distances, or much further?
 
kyler1945 said:
This is why I risk making everyone be annoyed with me by pointing out why we actually do some of the weird stuff we do.

If you want to find some contentment, it seems much easier to admit the strange motives behind your behavior. It explains that behavior in a much more reliable way. Why’s that important? Because you can then manage your expectations much more reliably.

As it relates to the topic, there’s almost zero chance any useful data exists. Because the motivation and incentive to gather the data goes in reverse of what you’re looking for: Mathew’s ain’t gonna sell any new bows for 1500.00 if everyone admits that whatever feature they’re marketing might give you 0.00000000000000000000001% increase in odds of success. Way better to leave the stone unturned.


You did point to maybe the only reliable data - professional archers. Whatever trends hold steady there will translate. They’re just likely not to have a strong correlation with your success because they’re so far outside an Amateur’s margin of error.

Being very precise with my arrow builds, spending time to get very very sharp broadheads, getting the bow locked down in tip top tune, + having shot maybe 20k arrows in my lifetime(allowing me to draw on instinct to shoot 95% of my best out of the gate every year) = almost all of the precision/archery hunting success I can come up with.

You could hand me any 29.5-31.5” 40lb-80lb 65-90% let off compound bow that isn’t a piece of crap that will not hold all settings and such, and I can have it shooting archers minute of angle out to 40 yards reliably. I know because I have done it with a dozen or so.

I bought my first brand new bow 3 years ago. I shoot it no differently at under 40 yards than any other I’ve owned. I feel stupid having shelled out the money now, but I guess I’ll have it for 10 years, so not too bad of an ROI

I bought a hickory creek mini 4 years ago. It showed me why what compound I shoot at whitetails doesn’t matter. Given infinite amount of time to shoot, I shoot my compound just as accurately and precise as the mini inside 40 yards with no bench. Change that to give myself 3 seconds to shoot from time I draw compound, or time I get a cheek weld with the mini, the mini gets way more accurate. No compound with any widget or measurement or feature will change that, enough to be measured inside 40 yards anyway.


@Plebe are you considering the advantages at deer hunting distances, or much further?
Click to expand...

Just deer distances
 
Plebe said:
In truth, I didn’t intend this to be about me. I was hoping there would be some consensus on design elements that effect shooter error. I just took a subjective turn because it became easier to discuss thoughts and concerns from the vantage point of my own limited experience of bow advancement and technology. You’ve probably handled hundreds of bow models. Appreciate your feedback.
Click to expand...
Gotcha.

Since in another post you mentioned that you're concerned with deer hunting distances, I'm doubling down on there not being a substantial difference between models. That hasn't always been the case...but anything built in the last 20 years came after meaningful improvements.

The one thing that may or may not matter on an individual shooter basis is grip. Some people torque some grip designs more than others. I personally like the old matthews bows, but those pretty wood grips and I had trouble playing nice. It was easy for me to torque one left and get fliers.

I forget who it was, but one manufacturer once built a bow with a grip that rode on bearings, making it impossible to torque. For some reason the model flopped and I don't think anybody else ran with that feature.
 
I'll second the grip, but opposite. I torque the the clutch grip on my bowtech and it is a non-issue on the wood grip mathews.

This has spurred me to compare risers and grips a little closer between the two. Hopefully I'll find something to point out that's a difference maker
 
Plebe said:
Answer is, have MFJJ do the shooting then. lol.
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Sounds like with your success it may be “if it ain’t broke don’t fix it” If your having good success why change?
For my compounds I am lucky to have a great guy at the pro shop that gets me set up every few years at a cost..but worth my time and money. Let him spend 90% of his time researching the latest bow technology that is over my head and I’ll spend 90% of my time practicing shooting the bow and hunting. Over simplifying but works for me.
Hey Plebe MFJJ could be your man.
 
Pick up a stick that’s 10’ long, 3” in diameter. Then pick up a Stick that’s 40’ long and 3” in diameter. Which one was harder?

I kinda feel like manufacturers have figured this stuff out already. Longer ata bows, longer brace heights, and weight out front make it harder to impact the human effect on a bow.

I’d say those affect consistency more than true accuracy. Would say an arrow and it’s setup affects accuracy as well.

As far as someone buying a bow and it being noticeably more accurate than another is highly unlikely to me. I think it’s more what bow fits someone better. Most people arnt good enough shooters to notice a pin point difference. Who knows though I could definitely be wrong. Yea
 
Hey @Nutterbuster what are your thoughts about hand shape/build and grip shape?

I've got kinda short chunky hands not long slender guitar God hands. Gun guys tell me my fat hands will probably shoot a skinny gripped pistol better, and slender hand guys generally like a bigger fatter grip. Would you say that's true of bows too? Am I being mislead on guns?

All thoughts welcome
 
Nutterbuster said:
Gotcha.

Since in another post you mentioned that you're concerned with deer hunting distances, I'm doubling down on there not being a substantial difference between models. That hasn't always been the case...but anything built in the last 20 years came after meaningful improvements.

The one thing that may or may not matter on an individual shooter basis is grip. Some people torque some grip designs more than others. I personally like the old matthews bows, but those pretty wood grips and I had trouble playing nice. It was easy for me to torque one left and get fliers.

I forget who it was, but one manufacturer once built a bow with a grip that rode on bearings, making it impossible to torque. For some reason the model flopped and I don't think anybody else ran with that feature.
Click to expand...
Who made that bow? Can you still find them?
 
I got a Mathew's NoCam HTR and I can pick it up after months of not shooting and start stacking arrows out at 40 and keep 4" group out to 60. But when my form breaks down so do the groups. Therefore the archer is the biggest variable and the tool type can amplify form issues to varying degrees. Maintain your equipment, body, soul, stick and bow.

Good luck finding your answers...
 
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