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Who Did Not Snort the Fairy Dust? And Why?

You also have to take evrything you read on here and anywhere else with a grain of salt., The guys who say they have misseed 2 or 3 deer in the last 30 years may have only shot at 30 or 40 deer in that time. The guy who says I never lost one to a bad hit may have only shot at 40 or 50 deer in their lives. Shot placement is very important but no way are you hitting where you hold everytime. I killed my first whitetail buck in 1977 with a 42# Wing recurve and a Bear broadhead. I was 12, blew through him like butter!! I never thought about FOC or even how much my arrow weighed and the deer did not care either. As I progressed in my hunting and started killing a lot of deer I learned a few things and the most important is to have confidence in what you are shooting and know what has worked for you and not really care what all the so called experts say or think cause a lot of them have killed 30 or 50 deer their whole life and think they know it all!! Shawn

you also started killing deer before the internet. Folks born into hunting, and having the advantage of community knowledge base that increased with the internet, can really shorten the learning curve.

I’m a proponent of boots on the ground, real life experience when it comes to most things, deer hunting included. But not just because it’s a better teaching tool. It is. But the main reason is the learning and journey are the fun part. There is no destination in deer hunting, like most dynamic activities. The beauty is in the doing.

but to think that aerial maps, Internet forums, access to gear cheap(relatively speaking), don’t have an impact on how quickly people can learn to hunt really effectively, is a fool’s errand.

to also assume that people who have only killed 20/30/50 deer, but haven’t been around or witnessed the killing of hundreds, is pretty silly too.

What you ‘feel’ works, sometimes works. What works, always works. Confidence is useful in many social matters. But the deer care not if you feel like you’re going to kill them today. I’m not sure it’s got anything to do with terminal arrow performance.

There are some first principles in hunting that are important, and don’t really change. But most of your innovation in techniques, tactics, equipment, etc come from people good enough to be good enough, but diverse enough in their skill set and interests to think outside the bubble.

all the people I’ve met who have killed 50+ deer have one or more of a few things going for them.

an understanding wife or no wife.

100% or more time spent in the deer woods than 95% of other hunters.

they are extremely adaptable, and are good at learning.

they are dumb as a brick, and stubborn, figured out a way to kill deer that works, and do nothing else.

they’re an outlaw.


with the exception of the oxen, all of them would listen to a fellow who’s only killed five deer with his bow if they thought it might help them kill more...
 
So guys at 17 start out as trophy hunters and only kill mature bucks. Doubtful but ok, also hunting mid west bucks in states who allow only one buck is not rocker science. Give most guys with a brain in their head a full season in the Midwest, and quite few will kill a good buck. It's not that hard to kill a good buck every year. Even on public it ain't that hard. Bring a "great whitetail hunter" from say Iowa and see how he does on public land in say NJ, NY, Mass. I promise you most will struggle to kill a 2 5 year old. Shawn

I don’t see your point, or maybe you don’t see mine.

I’m not saying hunters are better here or there or anywhere. I’m saying a hunter who has 40-50 deer without many misses or unrecovered animals has a good enough sample set to add value to the topic of whether or not high foc heavy arrow builds are necessary for whitetail deer. Thats all. You make it seem like you need 1000 kills to know how and what to shoot.

And yes, some hunters start off targeting mature deer. And yes, some do it in the Midwest and some do it in NY. I don’t see that as relevant to what an arrow will do or not.
 
It is appealing and makes sense, but until my 450 grain arrow with 15% foc and a buzzcut out front fails me, I won’t see a reason to change.


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Maybe but maybe not!! I don't totally disagree just not sold on it. Let's say there are some but not all that many from the pool you speak of. Also these are whitetail, not moose. I fairly heavy arrow will do the trick whether high doc or not! Now expandables, I have lots of doubts, maybe use a 100 grain insert behind one and see how it does on shoulder shots. My bet is not great! Shawn
 
I drank the Nock On Nation protein shake instead. trajectory and aim matters more to me than hitting deer with a boulder on a twig.

those who spend all there time obsessing over EFOC for white tails should spend more time practicing then they would get clean kills. Love THP, but they don’t seem to ever shoot past 15 yards. I understand EFOC may be better for low poundage bows on big big big animals like an ox, but for whitetails... seems overkill.

if it helps people cause they can’t or just don’t practice enough, I say they go for the ranch fairy stuff.

Dudley has taught me how to shoot past 50 yards. dead on. But RF did a better job teaching me kill zone shots (his triangle video is good) and how to sharpen blades. I also bought better solid steel broadheads after the RF journey. But again, more of a Dudley fanboy than RF.

Ive shot a lot of arrow builds from 340s and heavy inserts and recently tried FMJ’s this past season. I’m starting the year with only shooting my original 400 spines arrows. I’m back to robin hooding at 50 yards, feels good and will go with it from now on.

I shoot 60#, 29.5” draw and getting 270 FPS with my axis 5mm. 100 gr heads.
 
So guys at 17 start out as trophy hunters and only kill mature bucks. Doubtful but ok, also hunting mid west bucks in states who allow only one buck is not rocker science. Give most guys with a brain in their head a full season in the Midwest, and quite few will kill a good buck. It's not that hard to kill a good buck every year. Even on public it ain't that hard. Bring a "great whitetail hunter" from say Iowa and see how he does on public land in say NJ, NY, Mass. I promise you most will struggle to kill a 2 5 year old. Shawn

Or have them hunting extreme elevation changes and National Forest deer in the Blue Ridges. Concur that location matters. Dan Infalt is still the hunting beast and doesn’t seem to get all obsessed over EFOC - just finds deer, hunts them, and shoots them.
 
I don’t see your point, or maybe you don’t see mine.

I’m not saying hunters are better here or there or anywhere. I’m saying a hunter who has 40-50 deer without many misses or unrecovered animals has a good enough sample set to add value to the topic of whether or not high foc heavy arrow builds are necessary for whitetail deer. Thats all. You make it seem like you need 1000 kills to know how and what to shoot.

And yes, some hunters start off targeting mature deer. And yes, some do it in the Midwest and some do it in NY. I don’t see that as relevant to what an arrow will do or not.

Agree taking 50 deer with an arrow setup offers that persons input as valuable intel.

the location comment of out midwest vs NY is more how one perceives an ‘expert opinion.’ Who are you going to listen to when trying to find monster bucks, me? Or Dan Infalt? I’ve shot a handful of ‘trophies.’ But they are Appalachian bucks and look nothing like the deer out west or what Infalt gets to hunt. and it takes me several years to find them and hunt them as they are scarce and extremely smart. Out Midwest, plenty have spoken about the abundance of both deer and the size of them.

If you tried to hunt a 2.5+ old animal where I hunt without any experience, your freezermay be empty for a looong time.

but hunt good farmland Midwest and you have no excuse not get a good bucks after a few seasons hunting.
 
I drank the Nock On Nation protein shake instead. trajectory and aim matters more to me than hitting deer with a boulder on a twig.

those who spend all there time obsessing over EFOC for white tails should spend more time practicing then they would get clean kills. Love THP, but they don’t seem to ever shoot past 15 yards. I understand EFOC may be better for low poundage bows on big big big animals like an ox, but for whitetails... seems overkill.

if it helps people cause they can’t or just don’t practice enough, I say they go for the ranch fairy stuff.

Dudley has taught me how to shoot past 50 yards. dead on. But RF did a better job teaching me kill zone shots (his triangle video is good) and how to sharpen blades. I also bought better solid steel broadheads after the RF journey. But again, more of a Dudley fanboy than RF.

Ive shot a lot of arrow builds from 340s and heavy inserts and recently tried FMJ’s this past season. I’m starting the year with only shooting my original 400 spines arrows. I’m back to robin hooding at 50 yards, feels good and will go with it from now on.

I shoot 60#, 29.5” draw and getting 270 FPS with my axis 5mm. 100 gr heads.
You are missing the point. Most people dont shoot a heavy arrow because they can barely hit a beer keg at 20 yds.
They shoot a heavy arrow because rarely is a deer in exactly the same spot as when you shoot. They move,unlike a target. And fast at times.
That's why it is a plan B arrow if it should encounter heavy bone.
I dont think a 50 fps difference helps with the deer not being able to move to make you hit in a bad spot.
But to each their own...
 
You are missing the point. Most people dont shoot a heavy arrow because they can barely hit a beer keg at 20 yds.
They shoot a heavy arrow because rarely is a deer in exactly the same spot as when you shoot. They move,unlike a target. And fast at times.
That's why it is a plan B arrow if it should encounter heavy bone.
I dont think a 50 fps difference helps with the deer not being able to move to make you hit in a bad spot.
But to each their own...

agree each there own. And I’m not an expert by any means. I tired the EFOC arrow building but got such large pin gaps I was more worried about deer moving and completely missing than just getting a poor shot. With the faster arrow, I not worried about either. I also shoot low to anticipate the drop from string jump. I’ve never had deer move so crazy i can’t hit them...
 
Old gunslinger saying,
Speed is fine, but accuracy is final.
My 20-30 yard pins are a 1/2” apart, so what. Most deer are killed under 20 yards. Most deer beyond 30 are missed or wounded. Have fun out there, archery is not that complicated.


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Old gunslinger saying,
Speed is fine, but accuracy is final.
My 20-30 yard pins are a 1/2” apart, so what. Most deer are killed under 20 yards. Most deer beyond 30 are missed or wounded. Have fun out there, archery is not that complicated.


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So what about 20-30? How does that 1/2” pin spacing translate in accuracy in between?
 
I split pins at 25 yds, I can keep it in the 4&5 ring at 20 yards all day long. At 30 yards, about the same with an odd stray arrow. Like I say most of my deer killed are under 20 yards. I shoot fingers at 200 FPS.


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I split pins at 25 yds, I can keep it in the 4&5 ring at 20 yards all day long. At 30 yards, about the same with an odd stray arrow. Like I say most of my deer killed are under 20 yards. I shoot fingers at 200 FPS.


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Gotha, I have no idea what the spacing is between my pins.

I use a two pin system, and they seem pretty close together. In practice, I’m a cell phone length high at 20yds using my 30 yd pin, and a cell phone length low using my 20yd pin at 30. Also, a cell phone length low at 40yds using my 30yd pin.

I‘m into deer at 25yds often enough, and I’m pretty confident my 20yd pin will get the job done if I underestimate distance a bit, so long as I otherwise do my job.
 
Flat shooting, narrow pin gap is good. Jumpy deer still move quite a bit at 30 yds or beyond. Speed between 20 and 30 does decrease change of entry or even a miss. There is no way to know for sure how much they will move. Quiet bows help......accuracy helps even more. 400 gr or above with sharp broadheads helps for penetration in such circumstances. Traditional archery people use heavy setups for them...ask why..........penetration! Number 1 is accuracy...2 is penetration....you gotta get to the good stuff. But as someone who has flubbed enough to tell you that penetration makes up for my mistakes. LOL Just something to think about......shoot what you love shooting....your choice. Correct?
 
I basically added a 100 grain insert (arrow change as well but that's basically negligible). 505 grains total at about 268 fps (don't have my spreadsheet in front of me but that's close)... Didn't help me kill anything any better this year than my old setup but I did get better penetration in the dirt on the other side of the deer.
 
My Hoyt compound is as quiet as my Black Widow recurve, due to my 650 gr. arrows. My widow is quiet with 600 grain arrows. Both arrows have a 100 grain brass insert with a 200 cutthroat broad-head. Both are gold tip traditional carbon arrows 340 and a 400 out of the widow. The buck I shot this year was 190 field dressed, the 52# black widow blew through it and stuck in the dirt. Love cut on contact heavy arrows.


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Noonan, as long as you stay off the shoulder your widow shooting a 400 grain arrow would blow thru a whitetail even if shooting only 45#s. Shawn
 
I basically added a 100 grain insert (arrow change as well but that's basically negligible). 505 grains total at about 268 fps (don't have my spreadsheet in front of me but that's close)... Didn't help me kill anything any better this year than my old setup but I did get better penetration in the dirt on the other side of the deer.
Great to hear you harvested an animal! I think of it this way for heavy arrow weight.....if I don't hit perfectly , will it help get to the good stuff. Easier than pulling heavy poundage and cheaper than buying a new bow. LOL Inexpensive insurance.
 
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