Who has snorted the Fairy Dust?

[Plebe]

He did have a video discussing arrow noise....I don't know that is necessarily significantly "quieter" but the frequency of the arrow buzz was "less"

From what I've experienced the combo of the quieter bow and lower frequency projectile has really been eye opening. 2 examples from last season....I was able to sneak in amongst a sounder of pigs. Easily 10-15 pigs and I was able to shoot every arrow in my quiver and could have kept shooting if I had more.....and the second example was 2 deer feeding less than 10 feet apart, arrow flys in and hits 1, bounds off and dies sub 20yds and the other deer just stood there and watched the whole thing. I could have killed the other if it had been legal......and the example that really made up my mind couple seasons ago I was on the ground with 7 deer all within 30yds of me, I rose up and shot 1, it bounded twice and died right there and all the other deer just stood there. They didn't bogger off until I stood up. Sounds kinda far fetched but if I'm lying I'm dying

If you re-watch that RF video, he basically says they’re moving one way or another. Fast and light, slow and heavy. They tried it both ways. Pigs be ducking, so he says. He makes TX deer out to be about as finicky and agile.

I think in the whole of the RF experiment, I appreciate his purpose much more in consequence to his having shared this information that runs a bit contrary to the usual schtick.

I don’t have any experience to draw even anecdotal conclusions on it. I haven’t noticed enough delta on hits to have any appreciable insight to deer movement prior to impact. I’ve missed two ever, one visibly hit a branch and deflected. The other I found out I bumped my sight.

I think the DIY Sportman/RF podcast had some informative data on deer movement collected by the sportsman.

 

[Weldabeast]

@Weldabeast , what is your set up? DL, DW TAW? alphabet soup lol. I remember your shooting a Bear bow

I don't think the bow make and model matters much IMO...

I have a Parker. DL is 28.5 DW 50ish, arrow 760ish. Don't know a speed but it's slow, sub 200. I wouldn't recommend unless u wanna fully commit hahahaha. I made.my compound as close to traditional bow as possible inadvertently henehehe

 

[Weldabeast]

When I first started out i did what I think most do...cut fletched carbon arrow to length, add aluminum inserts, screw in mech head 100gr and go hunt. I had some boinks and unrecovered critters resulting from equipment failure and no penetration with my bow maxed at 70 pound DW

 

[DelaWhere_Arrow]

I think the shortcut for short draw low poundage bow hunters is to not shoot at deer past 25 or so yards. Maybe 20 depending on how short/low.

It’s a simple commitment to make, but not an easy one.

I don’t come at it from an ethical perspective, more of a practical one. You can spin yourself in knots trying to find a way to make a heavier arrow go fast. Math is math.

Or just do exactly what you said - try to hit that 250fps threshold with as heavy of an arrow as you can, shoot a really sharp coc head. Then set a single pin, and don’t shoot one past 25 yards. You’re effectively shooting trad.

Not because an imaginary friend said so. But because your odds decrease quickly, and you’re spending time money thought effort yard passes on getting your odds up right? Right? Isn’t that why we’re building heavy arrows to begin with?

I thought you might bite on my comment and I’m glad you did. That shot distance thing IS hyper critical. I have let so many deer walk outside of 25 yds and a few inside of 20 even, simply because of their alertness or the extra milliseconds it would take for my arrow to reach them vs how much they can drop. I took my biggest deer last year at just under 25 yds (some of y’all may remember the adventure) and it was without a doubt the farthest I would ever consider shooting a deer with my compound, especially at the height I was hunting (about 20-22’). IMO hunting height is maybe the second most critical non-gear factor you can weigh in your favor, and though it works for some, those Eberhart shot angles are a real motherfudger for my setup/effective range. It doesn’t matter what you’re shooting if you keep stacking other odds against yourself. As a low-KE shooter, I absolutely HAVE TO put everything semantically in my favor for the shot, because way too much can go wrong and even when everything goes right, you still might spend 26 hours looking for the buck that you pinwheeled through both lungs and top of the heart because he’s just a tough SOB.

 

[NMSbowhunter]

It's not just the super high shots either that can present issues with angles. The doe below was shot at about 3 yards from a height of about 12 feet. She came in from downwind, walked right under me and I shot her as she passed by. She made it 50 yards and piled up. Bow was 60# and the arrow was 650 grains and 28# FOC with a hair popping sharp Grizzly single bevel. The entrance was just under (or partly through) the backstrap and the exit was about perfect. I always visualize and aim for the exit hole. I would say that more than half of my shots end up being some variant of this high entrance and low exit. I have to assume I will hit them square in the spine eventually.

 

[DelaWhere_Arrow]

It's not just the super high shots either that can present issues with angles. The doe below was shot at about 3 yards from a height of about 12 feet. She came in from downwind, walked right under me and I shot her as she passed by. She made it 50 yards and piled up. Bow was 60# and the arrow was 650 grains and 28# FOC with a hair popping sharp Grizzly single bevel. The entrance was just under (or partly through) the backstrap and the exit was about perfect. I always visualize and aim for the exit hole. I would say that more than half of my shots end up being some variant of this high entrance and low exit. I have to assume I will hit them square in the spine eventually.

Definitely aiming for the exit has changed my recovery rate exponentially.

 

[raisins]

It's not just the super high shots either that can present issues with angles. The doe below was shot at about 3 yards from a height of about 12 feet. She came in from downwind, walked right under me and I shot her as she passed by. She made it 50 yards and piled up. Bow was 60# and the arrow was 650 grains and 28# FOC with a hair popping sharp Grizzly single bevel. The entrance was just under (or partly through) the backstrap and the exit was about perfect. I always visualize and aim for the exit hole. I would say that more than half of my shots end up being some variant of this high entrance and low exit. I have to assume I will hit them square in the spine eventually.

Compound or recurve or longbow?

 

[NMSbowhunter]

Compound or recurve or longbow?

Compound.

 

[Weldabeast]

That shot got me last year...high up in a tree and the buck at 11yds with a super steep angle. I specifically told myself to aim low, aimed low, and that is the instance the faster arrow is better choice....my slow arrow did.t arrive in time and over his back...if I had been 50fps faster I think it would have been a better outcome...or maybe it wouldn't have been quite fast enough and it been a marginal hit with deflection off the spine? Hard to say. I just consider it a miss and learn amd move on. I made a choice to go with the equipment that I did, don't recommend it to others, and just try to tell you guys what I'm experiencing with the equipment I got

Edit: I didn't build arrows like this for killing deer....I built them for when/if I run into some of these jumbo hogs. The big momma in that sounder last year must have only been a generation or 2 from rewiiding from domestication...she was 7-8 foot long huge tank, way bigger than any pig I've ever seen in our woods, 4x thicker than a deer and I have some giant boar hogs on camera and I try to be ready for those really tough critters. I'm not gonna build specific arrows for specific critters and carry them in the same quiver

 

[NMSbowhunter]

That shot got me last year...high up in a tree and the buck at 11yds with a super steep angle. I specifically told myself to aim low, aimed low, and that is the instance the faster arrow is better choice....my slow arrow did.t arrive in time and over his back...if I had been 50fps faster I think it would have been a better outcome...or maybe it wouldn't have been quite fast enough and it been a marginal hit with deflection off the spine? Hard to say. I just consider it a miss and learn amd move on. I made a choice to go with the equipment that I did, don't recommend it to others, and just try to tell you guys what I'm experiencing with the equipment I got

A clean miss is the second best outcome. A perfect hit is the best.

 

[BlessdHuntr]

For me after having an arrow bounce off a bucks shoulder I started investigating the heavy arrows. My arrows were about 400 TAW with rage broadhead. Hit the buck in shoulder and it literally bounced off and dropped straight to the ground. My new arrows are BE carnivore 32" with 350 up front. Almost 21%FOC. 200 grain VPA single bevel. And 700 TAW. My bow is more quiet. It seems to me that your system works until it doesn't. Then you evaluate what you were doing and make changes to your system to Hopefully increase your odds of successfully filling your tags. Good luck to all this season.

 

[kbetts]

My buddy JR shot the buck I posted with a sub 60# Mathews with a sub 400 grain arrow, Rage broadhead. We talked about it before he even left for the woods. I said "Don't crowd the shoulder". He said "I'm shooting him right through his soft center". 100 yds later, dead deer.
I wouldn't shoot that setup, but he is fully aware of the limits and where the arrow needs to go.....soft tissue.

 

[Halfstep]

What do you mean? Making peeps think about arrow flight and tuning isnt good? Making peeps think a little more about the anatomy of the critters we trying to kill isn't good? Making peeps start thinking more about how their arrow gonna interact with the critters we trying to kill isn't good?

Today's modern equipment has more than enough energy to kill most animals without issues. People can think and learn about arrow flight, critter anatomy and how the arrow interacts with the critters without inhaling the FD.

The FD is making people go with ultra-high FOC arrows. Even though this does have some benefit to arrow flight and penetration, it comes at a price. It slows down the arrow a bunch. This slower arrow is of no concern if you are hunting hogs over a feeder at a known distance like FD does. But when hunting deer at unknown distances, the slower speeds are going to make yardage estimation a lot more critical and problematic.

You don't get something for nothing. Archery is about trade-offs. You trade weight for speed or speed for weight. Too much of one and not enough of the other is equally problematic. One should try to find a balance between the two and get the most out of their bow. Today's equipment is more than adequate for most animals and shooting a balance system will get them more critters in the end.

 

[DelaWhere_Arrow]

My buddy JR shot the buck I posted with a sub 60# Mathews with a sub 400 grain arrow, Rage broadhead. We talked about it before he even left for the woods. I said "Don't crowd the shoulder". He said "I'm shooting him right through his soft center". 100 yds later, dead deer.
I wouldn't shoot that setup, but he is fully aware of the limits and where the arrow needs to go.....soft tissue.

I’m not a super huge Dudley fan, but he said something on one of his videos I really liked, much akin to what you’re saying: “I shoot, and build my setup to shoot, through the soft & squishy stuff.” Paraphrasing but he’s right IMO. You can’t plan for the small percentage mistakes, you have to plan for the high percentage intentional shots. When something does go wrong knowing you did your best to put that arrow through the vitals, path of least resistance, is a huge confidence boost. In martial arts we generally practice the same principles of putting strikes on high percentage, soft, squishy targets, but of course being ready for an adverse outcome/reaction from the opponent.

 

[kbetts]

Today's modern equipment has more than enough energy to kill most animals without issues. People can think and learn about arrow flight, critter anatomy and how the arrow interacts with the critters without inhaling the FD.

The FD is making people go with ultra-high FOC arrows. Even though this does have some benefit to arrow flight and penetration, it comes at a price. It slows down the arrow a bunch. This slower arrow is of no concern if you are hunting hogs over a feeder at a known distance like FD does. But when hunting deer at unknown distances, the slower speeds are going to make yardage estimation a lot more critical and problematic.

You don't get something for nothing. Archery is about trade-offs. You trade weight for speed or speed for weight. Too much of one and not enough of the other is equally problematic. One should try to find a balance between the two and get the most out of their bow. Today's equipment is more than adequate for most animals and shooting a balance system will get them more critters in the end.

Yardage isn't an issue anymore....lol. Everyone I see has to "click" the range finder before they shoot. It's like they can't shoot without it.

 

[BTaylor]

You don't get something for nothing. Archery is about trade-offs. You trade weight for speed or speed for weight. Too much of one and not enough of the other is equally problematic. One should try to find a balance between the two and get the most out of their bow. Today's equipment is more than adequate for most animals and shooting a balance system will get them more critters in the end.

While I do not disagree with your comment, I would argue bowhunting is about getting close. Trade-offs do not become an issue until folks stop trying to get close. I DO NOT make that comment in support of only shooting EFOC/super high weight arrows either. There I lean much closer to your idea of shooting a balanced or moderate set up. 9-12 gpp for trad and as heavy an arrow as your bow will shoot in the 265-280fps range for compounds.

 

[jgleas114]

I don't think the bow make and model matters much IMO...

I have a Parker. DL is 28.5 DW 50ish, arrow 760ish. Don't know a speed but it's slow, sub 200. I wouldn't recommend unless u wanna fully commit hahahaha. I made.my compound as close to traditional bow as possible inadvertently henehehe

760 grains... do you do curls in the saddle while you wait? haha kidding. Shoot what you feel confident with my man

 

[Weldabeast]

760 grains... do you do curls in the saddle while you wait? haha kidding. Shoot what you feel confident with my man

I only carry 3 arrows cause I wanna be ultralite at the same time....haha

I bought some micro diameter in a stiffer spine so once my current arrows all lost or broke I can really go crazy with the next set.....hahahahaha

 

[Will Harris]

While I do not disagree with your comment, I would argue bowhunting is about getting close. Trade-offs do not become an issue until folks stop trying to get close. I DO NOT make that comment in support of only shooting EFOC/super high weight arrows either. There I lean much closer to your idea of shooting a balanced or moderate set up. 9-12 gpp for trad and as heavy an arrow as your bow will shoot in the 265-280fps range for compounds.

i wish. my 47# compound bow is 200fps on a good day. so i "only" shoot arrows in the high 500gr. 570gr i think. i'm not around to weigh them. just gotta have them flying very true and keep shot range to 20yds or in. and then only on deer that are not on high alert. i shot a doe a couplea years ago that was edgy. at 22yds, she had time to duck some and roll some. still gotter, but ....

i shoot a very similar arrow from my 40# recurve and 47# self bow. range is 15yds MAX.

 

[krub6b]

I’m not a super huge Dudley fan, but he said something on one of his videos I really liked, much akin to what you’re saying: “I shoot, and build my setup to shoot, through the soft & squishy stuff.” Paraphrasing but he’s right IMO. You can’t plan for the small percentage mistakes, you have to plan for the high percentage intentional shots. When something does go wrong knowing you did your best to put that arrow through the vitals, path of least resistance, is a huge confidence boost. In martial arts we generally practice the same principles of putting strikes on high percentage, soft, squishy targets, but of course being ready for an adverse outcome/reaction from the opponent.

To me your martial arts theory supports the RF and Ashby way, aim for the soft squishy part but be ready in case you hit the less squishy part. By being ready for the time when something less than ideal happens and getting through the vitals regardless I feel like I am making the more ethical choice.

Back to the question @Weldabeast revived this thread with I think the RF is correct in his concerns about broadhead testing in gel and foam, it's an interesting point that penetration becomes very consistent in those mediums but are variable in real life, what is the reason for that? Is it the variable viscosity layers of the animal? The reaction of the animal to the shot? The reaction of the animal to the impact of the arrow?