Who has snorted the Fairy Dust?

[BTaylor]

Is it the variable viscosity layers of the animal? The reaction of the animal to the shot? The reaction of the animal to the impact of the arrow?

Does the arrow stay in the critter? What bones were contacted? Was the arrow well tuned and flying straight? Did the arrow make contact with anything before the animal that would have influenced arrow flight or changed the point of impact?

I think the answer is yes to all of those.

 

[BTaylor]

i wish. my 47# compound bow is 200fps on a good day. so i "only" shoot arrows in the high 500gr. 570gr i think. i'm not around to weigh them. just gotta have them flying very true and keep shot range to 20yds or in. and then only on deer that are not on high alert. i shot a doe a couplea years ago that was edgy. at 22yds, she had time to duck some and roll some. still gotter, but ....

i shoot a very similar arrow from my 40# recurve and 47# self bow. range is 15yds MAX.

Yeah, should have qualified that with by adding 65-70# or more draw weight.

 

[Horn]

Since Dud came up I've been listening to some of his podcasts.

Started with his RF one, didn't get anything out of that one. But the next one , PC 340 with Joel Maxfield, had a lot of interesting info in my opinion. Anyone else give that one a listen? They're all pretty long...

 

[kyler1945]

I listened to that podcast with Dudley and Troy. I had my finger on exit right up until Dudley told him he wouldn’t call him by his stage name. Hook line and sinker from there…

He rightly calls him out as being a charlatan. But I don’t think it’s being done with “evil” intent. He’s just a dude who noticed some stuff, got curious, and started doing real work to explore the topic.

Dudley also rightly calls into question why anyone should be listening to the subtext of everything Troy says. Which is “listen to me, I’m an expert.” Why is that the message? Because he’s smart, has experience in a somewhat related field, and purports to be “just a guy.” Then his “I can cure what ails you, simply” message gets leveraged with the internet. And instead of a conversation that goes well and hits the mark with buddies over beers, he turns into a prophet preaching gospel.

He can pretend all that’s going on is that he’s just a normal dude asking questions about why up ain’t down. But he knows, if he’s honest with himself, the leverage the internet creates. If he didn’t before this podcast, he does now.

Doesn’t mean he started with fame in mind - I believe he didn’t expect that many people to pay attention. But once “adult arrows” got added to the vernacular, it was hard to stop the train rolling downhill.

The overlap between what he’s doing or suggesting, and what’s good for most people paying attention to him, is pretty small. He can say all he wants that “I’m just presenting information, people can draw their own conclusions.” But the number of people who are convinced that 750gr arrows are not only a good idea for whitetail hunting, but a necessity, proves that they aren’t reading between the lines.

I started this thread as a response to “speed and accuracy are all that matters because it’s too hard to build a heavy arrow” crowd. I may need to go back and revise, as it really seems to be antibiotics for the other end of the spectrum now.

The everyman's guide to killing a deer with a compound bow...

Will an expandable broadhead on a light arrow kill a deer? Yes. Can you kill a deer at 50 yards with a bow? Yes. Is a 7 pin sight useful? Sure. Is the Ranch Fairy annoying? Yes. Is Ashby god? Sometimes it seems that way. Can everyone just shut up? I've learned the answer is no. Ok...

saddlehunter.com

Part of me wants to ignore it and continue buying expensive arrows for half price of less when people can’t get them to “behave”.

 

[BowhunterXC]

The best thing a person can do with any given amount of information, is use what works for you as an individual.

There may be some good information in any new idea and/or technology that can be applied to a person's hunting setup. Having a closed mind and just blowing off something just because it's different than what is current, is not helping yourself. I like to at least put my hands on the idea and equipment, before deciding if it's going to work for my application.

 

[tarafrost]

I drank the heavy projectile koolaid after reading much of this thread.

28000 gr @ 50 fps. Absolute killer at 10'! Also solves the high elevation problem....just drop the projectile on the deer's head!

LOL

 

[tarafrost]

But joking aside.....

Been trying to figure out whether to upgrade my old compound bow (old Bear single cam) or crossbow (Excalibur) for this Fall's hunting season. Was thinking I would have to go with an xbow since I damaged something in my shoulder years ago pulling the old compound bow. Dropped into the local gear shop.....tried some vertical bows. The technology has improved a lot since I bought my Bear well over a decade ago. Very smooth draw and didn't bother my shoulder at all. Walked out with a PSE Drive NXT kit, all rigged up and dialed back to around 50 lbs for now. Guess that means I'm not buying a new Tenpoint xbow...good thing...that would have been a lot more money and a lot less convenient to pack around! LOL

Got out in the yard Sunday afternoon to sight in and practice a bit. Fortunately I have tons of Gold Tip 5575 carbon arrows (I think they are 400 spine) that I can use, so didn't need to buy any more, but will likely increase the weight up front for field tips and broadheads since with 100 gr tips, they are just a bit under 400 grains, which seems on the light side. Oh....and gotta install lumenoks....love those things for hunting!

Merry early Christmas to me. LOL

I upped the front end to 150 gr. That puts me in the mid-400 gr area give or take. Got both fixed and hybrid Afflictor broadheads in 150 gr to play with. I'll do a more accurate measurement of TAW once I get the lumenocks installed and will chronograph the arrows out of the new PSE bow. Will also do a more accurate draw weight measurement and arrow length too.

First order of business is to get lots of practice in and tighten up my groups before the season opens in 3 weeks, since I haven't been shooting a compound bow much for some time.

Then will see where I stand. Figured that high 300 gr was on the light side, but not really ready to go heavy (500-600 gr) at this point. Like many things in life, moderation seems to be in order, hence looking at the mid 400 gr range to start out for this season.

Feel free to offer advice, criticize my thinking, or tell me I'm a fool. The latter would put you in good company with my wife.

 

[NMSbowhunter]

I drank the heavy projectile koolaid after reading much of this thread.

28000 gr @ 50 fps. Absolute killer at 10'! Also solves the high elevation problem....just drop the projectile on the deer's head!

LOL

View attachment 90557

We want you for team Kettlebell! Congrats on the new bow!

 

[Lowg08]

Well fellas. I landed in fairy land with my arrows. 583gr. Not with the fairy in mind or busting elephant femurs. It was arrow flight and noise. Or lack of. I am still able to use a 25 pin but I added a 30 because the drop over 25 to 30 was allot more than I wanted to hold over. I swapped up allot of things. Bought a 5 pin black gold rush sight and removed 3 pins. On video it sounds just like a rubber band popping. So not bad. I ended up with 31” autumn orange 300 FMJ. 75 grain brass insert, TAC wraps and 2.75 TAC driver on a 2 degree left helical and a magnus black Hornet 100gr.

 

[Horn]

Well fellas. I landed in fairy land with my arrows. 583gr. Not with the fairy in mind or busting elephant femurs. It was arrow flight and noise. Or lack of. I am still able to use a 25 pin but I added a 30 because the drop over 25 to 30 was allot more than I wanted to hold over. I swapped up allot of things. Bought a 5 pin black gold rush sight and removed 3 pins. On video it sounds just like a rubber band popping. So not bad. I ended up with 31” autumn orange 300 FMJ. 75 grain brass insert, TAC wraps and 2.75 TAC driver on a 2 degree left helical and a magnus black Hornet 100gr.

Having any adhesion issues with the TAC drivers? Using their prep stuff and glue? Just curious, in my very limited testing I really liked the TAC drivers

 

[Lowg08]

Having any adhesion issues with the TAC drivers? Using their prep stuff and glue? Just curious, in my very limited testing I really liked the TAC drivers

I use the hole set up. Adhesion kit wraps and all. Only thing to rip them off is a tree limb at 15 mph on a bicycle. Lol. They are quiet and solid

 

[Plebe]

To me your martial arts theory supports the RF and Ashby way, aim for the soft squishy part but be ready in case you hit the less squishy part. By being ready for the time when something less than ideal happens and getting through the vitals regardless I feel like I am making the more ethical choice.

The slower your strike, the more opportunity it doesn't land. Still a give and take.

Just cause the arrow goes through, doesn't mean the critter dies.

 

[BowhunterXC]

The technology has improved a lot since I bought my Bear well over a decade ago. Very smooth draw and didn't bother my shoulder at all. Walked out with a PSE Drive NXT kit, all rigged up and dialed back to around 50 lbs for now. Guess that means

Feel free to offer advice, criticize my thinking, or tell me I'm a fool. The latter would put you in good company with my wife.

You will get a lot more use and satisfaction out of that bow vs. a crossbow.
Technology has improved compound bows to the point that it has become much easier to be proficient with one and in less time.

One tip that will save you on arrow damage:
Don't shoot for groups, at a single target dot.
Shoot one arrow each, at individual target dots. You'll get the same results as shooting groups, but without the arrow/fletching damage.

 

[brydan]

The best thing a person can do with any given amount of information, is use what works for you as an individual.

We don't have time for that kind of nuance. What's most important is to decide what works for you and proclaim anything different is wrong

 

[woodsdog2]

I like your breakdown, so I’ll just add this:
My setup is pretty light (60#max, 27”DL, 380gr TAW with a 100gr BH), but about as heavy as my body type will allow. This summer I bought some 125gr heads to practice with, my thinking being that an extra 25gr up front couldn’t hurt my trajectory too much and would add some KE to the impacts of shots on these stupidly heavy Ohio deer. Initially, I was pretty impressed with the audible difference in “thwack” on the target. The 125 sounded much heavier than the 100gr, and was only dropping a few inches at 30yds. When I talked to the local pro shop about my findings, they suggested I throw some numbers into an arrow speed/KE calculator and see if I didn’t notice some diminishing returns. Well, their suggestion was critical to my findings: as I increased the BH weight, I lost several fps (down to 248fps) and gained almost a negligible amount of KE (like less than 0.5), and it was louder in-flight probably due to extra metal/longer ferrule picking up wind. When I adjusted back to the 100gr, my KE barely moved and my speed went back up to 253fps. I believe even for us low-poundage and short-draw shooters,we should be striving for 250+ FOS whenever possible. there’s a sweet spot on speed/KE/weight and I trusted my archery techs to set me up correctly to find my own, which according to the calculations seems to be maxed out on efficiency with the technology of my bow and the shape of my body. Concluded I could get more efficient shots on animals with a little extra TLC in my broadhead sharpening regimen. TLDR: I was trying to fix a problem that didn’t exist, while being oblivious to the much simpler solution of making damn sure that broadhead is as scary sharp as it can be.

KE isn’t the be all end all though either. IMHO the real measure on game is momentum measured in “slugs.” Mass times velocity. The mass is critically and much more realistically obtained than speed in that equation for everyone of us. I have the same DL you do and I opt for a medium-heavy setup at 476gr. Total arrow weight. I shot several setups through my chronograph over the last few years from fast bows to slow bows with a 373 and a 476 gr arrows. But the power factor always increases much more readily with added mass than added speed with ft/lb of energy remaining nearly identical.

 

[Crawdaddy4]

For me after having an arrow bounce off a bucks shoulder I started investigating the heavy arrows. My arrows were about 400 TAW with rage broadhead. Hit the buck in shoulder and it literally bounced off and dropped straight to the ground. My new arrows are BE carnivore 32" with 350 up front. Almost 21%FOC. 200 grain VPA single bevel. And 700 TAW. My bow is more quiet. It seems to me that your system works until it doesn't. Then you evaluate what you were doing and make changes to your system to Hopefully increase your odds of successfully filling your tags. Good luck to all this season.

Have watched the same thing happen too many times with a Rage-tipped twizzler (super light arrow) bounce OFF a deer’s front shoulder. I love the confidence I have with my High FOC arrow that whatever I hit will be penetrated. I didn’t “snort the RF dust”, but his videos did point me to the Ashby Foundation’s empirical research and scientific testing. I decided that high FOC was for me. I exclusively hunt public land as a meat hunter. I want maximum lethality with my arrows (shot placement is all on the shooter, not the arrow). Again, I’m not saying this is the “right way” or “only way” but it’s “my way”. Seems some folks get their knickers in a twist
because someone favors a setup dissimilar to theirs…..

I would say that regardless of your setup, I 100% recommend a CoC broadhead that you can hand sharpen yourself. Whether you’re shooting 200fps or 400fps, the pointy end has to be SHARP!

 

[Crawdaddy4]

KE isn’t the be all end all though either. IMHO the real measure on game is momentum measured in “slugs.” Mass times velocity. The mass is critically and much more realistically obtained than speed in that equation for everyone of us. I have the same DL you do and I opt for a medium-heavy setup at 476gr. Total arrow weight. I shot several setups through my chronograph over the last few years from fast bows to slow bows with a 373 and a 476 gr arrows. But the power factor always increases much more readily with added mass than added speed with ft/lb of energy remaining nearly identical.

And there is a positive correlation between higher slug ft/s and penetration.

 

[woodsdog2]

And there is a positive correlation between higher slug ft/s and penetration.

Agreed. However, how much more poundage can you pull to get that heavier arrow going that much faster? Diminishing returns sets in on many levels from shot comfort to the ability to draw the bow in the coldest of hunting conditions. It’s much more effective in my opinion to gain those slugs by increased mass. Diminishing returns sets in much later, with the exception of trajectory. Which will always be a balancing act. The target does or should have a say!! Check out this great video on arrow weight:

 

[Weldabeast]

Fairy and rocket man have both eluded to some data they have showing the slower projectiles getting "better" penetration.....i think it's newtons 3rd law? For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction...the faster that arrow going the more force trying to stop it. The foam target show that easy enough....hold ur arrow.in ur hand and apply slow steady downward pressure and see how far u can sink it....now do the same but slam that arrow in with as much force and as fast as u can

 

[Bowmanmike]

Agreed. However, how much more poundage can you pull to get that heavier arrow going that much faster? Diminishing returns sets in on many levels from shot comfort to the ability to draw the bow in the coldest of hunting conditions. It’s much more effective in my opinion to gain those slugs by increased mass. Diminishing returns sets in much later, with the exception of trajectory. Which will always be a balancing act. The target does or should have a say!! Check out this great video on arrow weight:

I totally agree on your point of the importance of being able to draw in the cold after sitting still for hours. When I started bowhunting 10 years ago I had a really hard time pulling my then 55# bow back after shivering for a while in the stand. I was actually going to climb down but some does showed up. I managed to pull the bow back,barely. I got no shot and had to let down and that is what hurt my shoulder pretty good,which I didn't realize until the next day. I think it was bursitis,I couldn't even lift my arm for a week.
I shoot 60# now but could draw 70 or more easy enough but I like knowing that I can draw as slow as possible if i need to and that cold won't stop me from drawing either.