Who has snorted the Fairy Dust?

[Will Harris]

We could have the data to easily tease out what factors correlate most strongly with lethality on whitetail deer after a single season.

All it would take is a simple app for a hunter to drop in the 10-20 variables that we’re looking at. Get several thousand people to submit data, and you’re in business.

Two problems as I see it:

I’ll pay to build the app - but I ain’t paying to fund the campaign to convince people to use it.

Though not necessary for us knuckle draggers to make loud noises on what it all means, there would be a cost to pay properly trained folks to analyze the data. Maybe someone knows someone who knows someone who knows somethin bout it. Grad student, intern, etc.

We could also do the same thing here. I’ve already asked the mods, but they can’t commit to keeping the thread clean for data drops. It’s not a reflection of them, it’s a reflection of us not being able to keep our opinions to ourselves.

I’ll make the offer again - if anyone is serious about collecting this data in an adult way, I’m happy to get involved with time and dollars. It’s not hard to dream up the scheme. It’s getting a few people to take it seriously.

thats an awesome offer and i, for one, appreciate it. but (you knew there'd be one), IMO there is no 1 right answer for all of us.

i'm old and i have 2 jacked up shoulders and can only comfortably pull and accurately shoot from a saddle on my weak side a 47# compound bow. to compensate for this, i shoot 570gr arrows with good FOC and COC fixed broadhead. i have to keep shots 20yds or less to remain effective with this setup. i do not expect a healthy young man to take my approach.

i think the "right" answer will be a continuum of a dozen or more factors. desired kill radius, mass of target animal, draw weight that can be drawn with minimum motion, draw weight that can be held for extended periods of time and still accurate on release, etc on and on.

i'd love to see this continuum. factor in all the things that i need and BLAM, there's my setup!

Ashby did a lot of great work. mostly aimed at people like me. light compound or trad. IMO, if you can shoot a 70# bow and stay off the shoulder knuckle and have decent arrow flight, you can shoot twizzlers and flappers and be deadly killers.

 

[kyler1945]

thats an awesome offer and i, for one, appreciate it. but (you knew there'd be one), IMO there is no 1 right answer for all of us.

i'm old and i have 2 jacked up shoulders and can only comfortably pull and accurately shoot from a saddle on my weak side a 47# compound bow. to compensate for this, i shoot 570gr arrows with good FOC and COC fixed broadhead. i have to keep shots 20yds or less to remain effective with this setup. i do not expect a healthy young man to take my approach.

i think the "right" answer will be a continuum of a dozen or more factors. desired kill radius, mass of target animal, draw weight that can be drawn with minimum motion, draw weight that can be held for extended periods of time and still accurate on release, etc on and on.

i'd love to see this continuum. factor in all the things that i need and BLAM, there's my setup!

Ashby did a lot of great work. mostly aimed at people like me. light compound or trad. IMO, if you can shoot a 70# bow and stay off the shoulder knuckle and have decent arrow flight, you can shoot twizzlers and flappers and be deadly killers.

Step one get data.

Step two organize and analyze data.

Step 3 develop sliding scale for utilizing the data.

Step 4, realize in the end the time was better spent walking around in the woods looking for deer rather than trying to build 700gr arrows or argue about physics that are well beyond your comprehension.

Rhetorical “you” in step 4.

 

[Halfstep]

While I do not disagree with your comment, I would argue bowhunting is about getting close. Trade-offs do not become an issue until folks stop trying to get close. I DO NOT make that comment in support of only shooting EFOC/super high weight arrows either. There I lean much closer to your idea of shooting a balanced or moderate set up. 9-12 gpp for trad and as heavy an arrow as your bow will shoot in the 265-280fps range for compounds.

With a compound bow, the average male has a draw length of 28". The average hunter is going to draw around 65 pounds. If a guy buys a hunting bow with a 330 IBO speed rating and that actually shot it's advertised rating, he will be shooting 310 FPS at his 28" draw length and that is with a light 325 grain arrow. If that guy buys average weight hunting arrows of 425 grains, he now reduces his speed to around 280 FPS. If he snorts the FD and goes 20% FOC, he will add at least another 100+ grains up front taking him down to 250 FPS. So, 250FPS is a best case scenario and most likely closer to 240FPS when all is said and done. Most bows don't shoot their advertised IBO speeds so it may even be lower than 240 FPS. A 5 yard mis guess at 30 yards will be a missed shot.

At 240-250 FPS the arrow drop is noticeable and yardage estimation becomes more critical. Even though most hunters carry rangefinders, some situations happen quickly and there isn't enough time to use it. As a bow hunter, one needs to be more self reliant and be proficient in yardage estimations.

I have a 30" draw length so I can increase arrow weight and still maintain good speed so some of us have better options for shooting heavier FOC arrows. I hunt at the 280 FPS mark, and it works well for me.

As for getting close to the game, I totally agree with you and take that approach myself. But it is good practice to be prepared for different hunting scenarios where a longer shot may be the only option.

 

[Crawdaddy4]

We could have the data to easily tease out what factors correlate most strongly with lethality on whitetail deer after a single season.

All it would take is a simple app for a hunter to drop in the 10-20 variables that we’re looking at. Get several thousand people to submit data, and you’re in business.

Two problems as I see it:

I’ll pay to build the app - but I ain’t paying to fund the campaign to convince people to use it.

Though not necessary for us knuckle draggers to make loud noises on what it all means, there would be a cost to pay properly trained folks to analyze the data. Maybe someone knows someone who knows someone who knows somethin bout it. Grad student, intern, etc.

We could also do the same thing here. I’ve already asked the mods, but they can’t commit to keeping the thread clean for data drops. It’s not a reflection of them, it’s a reflection of us not being able to keep our opinions to ourselves.

I’ll make the offer again - if anyone is serious about collecting this data in an adult way, I’m happy to get involved with time and dollars. It’s not hard to dream up the scheme. It’s getting a few people to take it seriously.

If we all kept our opinions to ourselves, neither this forum nor most others would exist .

I'd be willing to analyze and visualize the data in Tableau if we gather enough. My only concern with user-reported data, is the inherent biases (subjectivity, reliability, social desirability, etc.).

Let me know if you garner enough interest for a reasonable sample size.

 

[kyler1945]

My only concern with user-reported data, is the inherent biases (subjectivity, reliability, social desirability, etc.).

This is why I want an appropriately trained person to do the analysis. All of the noise can be controlled for. And why I want a far reaching simple way to get the data. You need a big enough set for it to wash out.

I have no idea if you have the appropriate background and tools for the analysis. My guess is not. But if you do, take this to PM, we now have a team of 2…

 

[Blacksmith]

At some point it's only an argument because we find it amusing to argue about it. At the end of the day we'll all hunt with whatever legal projectiles we choose and loose no sleep over what anyone else hunts with.

"But what if I think I'm Right". JK. Everyone thinks they are right and we'll probably change no ones mind. I only know what works very well for me. And I really don't care if you use a flint head on a cane shaft W/ goose feathers.

 

[Crawdaddy4]

"But what if I think I'm Right". JK. Everyone thinks they are right and we'll probably change no ones mind. I only know what works very well for me. And I really don't care if you use a flint head on a cane shaft W/ goose feathers.

Only if they are Canada Gooses' feathers....

 

[thedutchtouch]

I skipped a lot of the pages of back and forth... but I'm starting to believe this stuff a bit. I built a set of arrows with 100gr inserts and see no noticeable detriment compared to the light "standard" inserts (and it seems like they penetrate the target a bit more?) I dunno if it's all in my head or real, but there doesn't seem to be a downside, particularly since I'm shooting them from a pretty fast bow. I know we aren't shooting rhinos, but if it's just a matter of gluing in a different insert, and the arrow speed doesn't seem to be hugely different (no Chrono, I'm sure it is but I don't notice it)

29 1/4 arrow length 250 spine gt hunter xt's with a 100 gr insert and QAD exodus 125 gr broadheads is my current hunting setup (maybe I'll dabble with the single bevels next year) shooting my elite omnia at 70 lbs /29" dl.

I'm a bit behind tuning/shooting this new setup because I gave myself some elbow tendonitis this summer and am a noob to bow tuning, but it seems (knock on wood) the elbow is resolved and I'm getting better at tuning/ getting back into shooting the bow now that season has started.

 

[Halfstep]

I skipped a lot of the pages of back and forth... but I'm starting to believe this stuff a bit. I built a set of arrows with 100gr inserts and see no noticeable detriment compared to the light "standard" inserts (and it seems like they penetrate the target a bit more?) I dunno if it's all in my head or real, but there doesn't seem to be a downside, particularly since I'm shooting them from a pretty fast bow. I know we aren't shooting rhinos, but if it's just a matter of gluing in a different insert, and the arrow speed doesn't seem to be hugely different (no Chrono, I'm sure it is but I don't notice it)

29 1/4 arrow length 250 spine gt hunter xt's with a 100 gr insert and QAD exodus 125 gr broadheads is my current hunting setup (maybe I'll dabble with the single bevels next year) shooting my elite omnia at 70 lbs /29" dl.

I'm a bit behind tuning/shooting this new setup because I gave myself some elbow tendonitis this summer and am a noob to bow tuning, but it seems (knock on wood) the elbow is resolved and I'm getting better at tuning/ getting back into shooting the bow now that season has started.

100 grains will make about 30 FPS difference in a bow's speed.

For your elbow tendonitis, buy some Cataplex ACP made by Standard Process. You can find it on Amazon. It is a vitamin high in A and C and will very quickly heal the connective tissue tears. Take 3 in the morning, 3 mid-day, 3 in the evening. Also, get a barbell and do some seated wrist curls to balance out the two muscle groups. An old chiropractor turned me onto the Cataplex ACP for tendonitis. He sold it in his office because he was located in an area with a lot of loggers who run chainsaws a lot and develop tendonitis. The stuff works miracles for tendonitis.

 

[Blacksmith]

I skipped a lot of the pages of back and forth... but I'm starting to believe this stuff a bit. I built a set of arrows with 100gr inserts and see no noticeable detriment compared to the light "standard" inserts (and it seems like they penetrate the target a bit more?) I dunno if it's all in my head or real, but there doesn't seem to be a downside, particularly since I'm shooting them from a pretty fast bow. I know we aren't shooting rhinos, but if it's just a matter of gluing in a different insert, and the arrow speed doesn't seem to be hugely different (no Chrono, I'm sure it is but I don't notice it)

29 1/4 arrow length 250 spine gt hunter xt's with a 100 gr insert and QAD exodus 125 gr broadheads is my current hunting setup (maybe I'll dabble with the single bevels next year) shooting my elite omnia at 70 lbs /29" dl.

I'm a bit behind tuning/shooting this new setup because I gave myself some elbow tendonitis this summer and am a noob to bow tuning, but it seems (knock on wood) the elbow is resolved and I'm getting better at tuning/ getting back into shooting the bow now that season has started.

To start I simply glued 100 gr inserts in and got 10" more penetration on a target.

 

[Horn]

100 grains will make about 30 FPS difference in a bow's speed.

For your elbow tendonitis, buy some Cataplex ACP made by Standard Process. You can find it on Amazon. It is a vitamin high in A and C and will very quickly heal the connective tissue tears. Take 3 in the morning, 3 mid-day, 3 in the evening. Also, get a barbell and do some seated wrist curls to balance out the two muscle groups. An old chiropractor turned me onto the Cataplex ACP for tendonitis. He sold it in his office because he was located in an area with a lot of loggers who run chainsaws a lot and develop tendonitis. The stuff works miracles for tendonitis.

How long do you keep up on all those pills? I'm having some feet/ankle issues so I might give them a try. Not terrible problems but stubborn!

 

[Halfstep]

How long do you keep up on all those pills? I'm having some feet/ankle issues so I might give them a try. Not terrible problems but stubborn!

I would take them for about a week and the tendonitis would be completely gone.

What kind of ankle/feet problem do you have? I have 2 screws in my left ankle, 11 screws and 2 plates in my right ankle and it is fused. So, I too have ankle/feet issues.

 

[Horn]

I would take them for about a week and the tendonitis would be completely gone.

What kind of ankle/feet problem do you have? I have 2 screws in my left ankle, 11 screws and 2 plates in my right ankle and it is fused. So, I too have ankle/feet issues.

Pretty sure I just pushed too hard in awful boots one day scouting ( change of plans lol) and haven't had time or will power to heal. Just very tight and stiff

I hope you're getting along alright after what sounds like a bad injury!

 

[phatkaw]

I would take them for about a week and the tendonitis would be completely gone.

What kind of ankle/feet problem do you have? I have 2 screws in my left ankle, 11 screws and 2 plates in my right ankle and it is fused. So, I too have ankle/feet issues.

Let me guess.
You rode and raced dirtbikes too???

 

[tarafrost]

Got the chrono out and did some measuring. Set the bow exactly at 50 lb (I measured it....was set at 40 lbs from the shop,,,,no wonder if felt so easy to pull! ). Got a 29" draw length.

Was getting only 230 fps with a 455 gr arrow (150 up front, lumenok out back). That seemed way on the slow side.

Switched to 100 gr up front for a TAW of 405 grains. That got me around 245 fps. Better.

As I get practiced up I'll crank up the pull to 55 then maybe 60 lbs to see how much more speed I can get out of the lighter arrows and maybe try the 455s again. Only flung around 20 arrows today....bit tired from doing a 4 km hike wearing a 60 lb backpack at lunch time (with that much weight, the arms get a workout too since I use trekking poles). Will do more shooting tomorrow and try some at 30/40 yards.

On the plus side, I was getting some better groups today at 20 yards, even with the 10 lbs of extra draw weight. Might have had something to do with getting a new release: Carter Like Mike 2. Nice crisp trigger!

 

[Halfstep]

Let me guess.
You rode and raced dirtbikes too???

I never did much dirt bike riding.

 

[DelaWhere_Arrow]

Didn’t see this in my perusal of 58 pages but if it’s here please excuse the redundancy:
Arrow Momentum & Speed Deprivation Testing
Certainly interesting. Make up your own minds on the data.
I will say, according to my calculations inspired by this video and this thread, my tiny draw length and kid arrows will kill almost anything in North America inside 25 yds.

 

[DelaWhere_Arrow]

Also interesting:
excerpt taken from an outfitter’s website, where he discusses arrow flight, game reactions, etc. His listed reaction times correlate pretty closely with some of the info I’ve read from MSU and some other researchers. Basically, anything reaching the target in less than 1/3 of 1 second will hit within a reasonable margin of your aim point even if the animal moves, but is still not guaranteed. You really have to move that arrow at a blistering 1/10 of a second to have any hope of beating the all-too-common string-duck, at face value.
Here’s the whole article: Deer Reaction Time & Jumping The String

 

[jonkytron]

all in all I just dont see how you can go wrong with a balanced arrow.. just go for balance. Ask yourself, what arrow will get you a good balance of speed, weight, and FOC, without using a spine that is too weak or too stiff and go with that arrow.. you really cant go wrong that way

In terms of expendables, I think they are awesome in theory, as Id love to use a carni-four and put 4- 2inch blades thru a deer and have them just gushing blood for a trail, but its just too risky for me.. the thought of that thing expanding too early or not expanding at all.. Or just getting stuck in a shoulder, it rules out expandable BHs for me.

 

[Lowg08]

As anyone sat down and nerded out on typing in random arrow weights out of your bow and noticed at a point you have the most FPS and KE and momentum out an arrow that is not RF heavy. It’s like an arch. It builds up to the top and at a certain point falls off. I’ve been noticing a 470 grain arrow has almost identical KE as my 583 but the 470 would travel at 265 fps and the 583 at 224 fps. Something to think about.