Why don't yall 2TC?

[TommyDee]

First climb yesterday in 6 months. I ditched the mammut smart and more or less copied north forty’s set up, with a Michoacán hitch (rather than prusik) above sandwiching an ATC on 9 mm Canyon IV. (A guide ATC, but not using that functionality). Using sterling 6 mm TRC on the upper hitch, and a 6 mm steriling autoblock loop on the linesman loop, to aid the rappel. The double pinch of these knots is a perfect slow, stealthy, safe rappel, and the michochoan tends well enough with the Atc, as I’m usually snugging up the upper tether a few times during the climb. the mammut with a friction hitch above only was too herky-jerky. I run my stock Latitude Oplux tether with the CGM footloop, loose on my foot. My stock latitude linesman belt sits at the bottom of my dump pouch as 3rd tether for limbs/emergency. I know many of you have ditched the rappel, but I like the fast route to the ground. It’s not the lightest setup, has some bulk, but it’s safe, quiet, reasonably efficient.

Only thing left to dial in is yes/no on tether handles, they help a little, but add bulk and can get in the way a bit. (I have the 3D ones). Also need to practice limb passes, and i might re-0employ the CGM leg loop for stability, and practice some bigger trees.

Anything else you guys recommend with this setup Before i order some replacement hitch cord? Sewn eye cords to try that might tend a little better? Only downfall i see with this rappel method is premature wear on the hitch cord, so I’m gonna buy a few.

PS: i adjusted my bridge so it’s not right on the stopper knot since i took this pic (safety)

PPS: For you guys playing with the double footloop, Try single with the CGM loop, it’s very solid, and makes this method much easier. It’s worth the extra bulk/cost.

 

[cedar paul]

Been refining this system and while I am not climbing as fast as some the system has no slack in my saddle tether and having the central connection to the tree to hold me while moving top tether is great. While linesman belt/ lanyards are great for positioning I feel much safer having a quick secondary lifeline connection when taking tension off my primary tether/ rappell line.

 

[Samcirrus]

First climb yesterday in 6 months. I ditched the mammut smart and more or less copied north forty’s set up, with a Michoacán hitch (rather than prusik) above sandwiching an ATC on 9 mm Canyon IV. (A guide ATC, but not using that functionality). Using sterling 6 mm TRC on the upper hitch, and a 6 mm steriling autoblock loop on the linesman loop, to aid the rappel. The double pinch of these knots is a perfect slow, stealthy, safe rappel, and the michochoan tends well enough with the Atc, as I’m usually snugging up the upper tether a few times during the climb. the mammut with a friction hitch above only was too herky-jerky. I run my stock Latitude Oplux tether with the CGM footloop, loose on my foot. My stock latitude linesman belt sits at the bottom of my dump pouch as 3rd tether for limbs/emergency. I know many of you have ditched the rappel, but I like the fast route to the ground. It’s not the lightest setup, has some bulk, but it’s safe, quiet, reasonably efficient.

Only thing left to dial in is yes/no on tether handles, they help a little, but add bulk and can get in the way a bit. (I have the 3D ones). Also need to practice limb passes, and i might re-0employ the CGM leg loop for stability, and practice some bigger trees.

Anything else you guys recommend with this setup Before i order some replacement hitch cord? Sewn eye cords to try that might tend a little better? Only downfall i see with this rappel method is premature wear on the hitch cord, so I’m gonna buy a few.

PS: i adjusted my bridge so it’s not right on the stopper knot since i took this pic (safety)

PPS: For you guys playing with the double footloop, Try single with the CGM loop, it’s very solid, and makes this method much easier. It’s worth the extra bulk/cost.

I love your 2TC journey! My only advice is if you're using an ATC up high like that, you might like a figure 8 much better. They are inexpensive and at least something else to experiment rappelling with!
I haven't given up rappelling....I only 2TC down if I haven't passed any branches during the climb up.

 

[TommyDee]

I love your 2TC journey! My only advice is if you're using an ATC up high like that, you might like a figure 8 much better. They are inexpensive and at least something else to experiment rappelling with!
I haven't given up rappelling....I only 2TC down if I haven't passed any branches during the climb up.

My first rappels were with a figure 8. No issues, but you’ve gotta pay attention Hands free, and i don’t like the ”pop“ when you lock it in. I seem to be noisy with it, even with some hockey tape on the carabiner side.

 

[Samcirrus]

My first rappels were with a figure 8. No issues, but you’ve gotta pay attention Hands free, and i don’t like the ”pop“ when you lock it in. I seem to be noisy with it, even with some hockey tape on the carabiner side.

Ah ok, sounds good. I wish you much joy in practicing, improving, and testing your system through the summer.. .which reminds me I need to go get in a tree one of these days....its been a few months.

 

[BigAl]

I'm very interested in 2TC......probably purchasing a foot loop shortly and start my learning curve...LOL. My question is.....if I tie a friction hitch ala... JRB or something similar then use an autoblock on my lineman loop to rappel with as to stop my descent as needed why would one need something else applied to my rappel rope to rappel with? Or are there good reasons to add other devices?.......rope friction and wear maybe? Enlighten me guys.....I'm a newb to 2TC.

 

[gcr0003]

I'm very interested in 2TC......probably purchasing a foot loop shortly and start my learning curve...LOL. My question is.....if I tie a friction hitch ala... JRB or something similar then use an autoblock on my lineman loop to rappel with as to stop my descent as needed why would one need something else applied to my rappel rope to rappel with? Or are there good reasons to add other devices?.......rope friction and wear maybe? Enlighten me guys.....I'm a newb to 2TC.

You can and should learn to climb up and down with 2tc. 2TC does NOT require rappelling. Anyone who has 2TC for any amount of time will tell you that you can climb down with 2TC very fast. So your question isn’t really specific to 2TC but more toward rappelling.

This had been discussed quite a bit but can always bare repeating. Absolutely never rappel on a hitch by itself. Hitches by themselves do not have enough friction control for steady descent. Your butt will drop to the bottom in a heart beat. When hitches are broken open by the full weight of person the person will start sliding down the rope and gravity will be helping accelerate that person if they are falling. This means the longer that hitch is open that more force it will have to overcome to stop you from moving. Many times once you get going you can NOT get the hitch to re-catch. It’s like the hitch hold 225 lbs and you’re 200 lbs. if you’re just leaning there it’s not going to move at all but if you jump up and down you could put 230 lbs of force on that hitch and get it to slide a couple of inches. When you’re on a rope rappelling it’s kind of like that, except you’re 200 lbs falling at however many ft/s which is going to generate 250+ lbs of force and there is no way for that 225lb holding friction hitch to stop 250+ lbs.

You can test this at ground level with a tether. Make sure it is high enough or that you have a knot high enough such that when you don’t stop you won’t hit the ground. Break open the hitch until you start sliding and then release your hand from the hitch and let it grab. Slowly increase the speed and distance you slide before letting go of the hitch and you will notice it sliding a little more and more until it will keep sliding after you have let go of it. This is what can and will occur to you if you don’t use a rappel/belay device such as a rappel ring, figure 8, atc, munter etc.

The rappel device adds friction to the rope and therefore reduces the friction required by your hitch to grab and hold you from moving down the rope. Imagine that 225hitch on your tether that holds you stationary now has a a figure 8 infront of it. That figure 8 takes 100 lbs of that friction and so your hitch only has to hold the other 100lbs of it. But 100lbs is nothing for a 225 lb hitch to hold. So once your get moving in your rappel, even if it is at a decent descent rate, you have more band with to stop. The other thing is the bend on the figure 8 is like a break. If you hold tight with your “break” hand you can stop yourself from rappelling because you only have to hold Say half the weight. That’s another reason you can rappel on a hitch alone, once you’re falling your one hand can’t hold your body weight, at least most people cannot. So if you can’t hold yourself in a fall one handed, you should be rapping on just a friction hitch or you will fall in hurt yourself or worse. Having a friction hitch in combination with a rappel device is the proven way to go. The rappel device is super critical. It is taking so much of the friction and heat so your hands don’t have to.

There will come and say, oh no you can rappel on just a hitch if it’s an emergency, or you can rappel on just a hitch if it’s configured in this special way, ir what about a Blake’s hitch for MRS, or you can rappel on hitch if this and that are satisfied but the fact remains that it is not ideal and it is not safe tried and true method or means. So for all intentsive purposes understand that it is not something that can or should be done.

I quickly typed this out and I know there is a more clear way to explain it, but please understand that you should NEVER rappel on a hitch by itself!

 

[gcr0003]

@BigAl I only say all of that so aggressively because there really is 100 ways to die or get hurt with any kind of climbing so I don’t think this aspect of safety can be over stated.

Now that I said my peace I would recommend a simple figure 8 that can be had from $15 and can live on the belt of your saddle. Simply take it out and put it in-line with your rope when you’re ready to come down. I would also recommend learning to configure your rope on your carabiner in a munter hitch which can be used as a rappel device, it twists the rope a lot so I typically don’t use it that much but it does work well and can get you out of a pinch if your were to drop your figure 8.

 

[NMSbowhunter]

As grc0003 said, 2tcing down is as easy if not easier than 2tcing up. On the way down you get a little assist from gravity helping your rope move down the tree. It really is very simple. Starting out, I would recommend learning simple 2TC. All you need is your normal tether on top and some sort of simple foot loop on the bottom. Try it out low and slow. Go up a move or two and come back down. After a while, if you feel the need, start adding things like rappelling to the equation. When I first started out I tried to incorporate rappelling and it was a mistake. Someone here suggested to me that I should learn to do 2TC simple and they were right.

If you don't know how to rappel yet, I would advise not trying to learn a new method while trying to learn rappelling at the same time.

Below is all I use to go up and down the tree plus a ring of steps. There is not much there for me to worry about. I am always connected to the tree the whole time from when my feet leave the ground to when I step back down after the climb.

 

[cedar paul]

I have recommended a book in the past " On Rope" by Bruce Smith and Allen Padgett if anyone has an interest in a very thorough study in vertical rope techniques.

 

[Iron_llama]

Only thing left to dial in is yes/no on tether handles, they help a little, but add bulk and can get in the way a bit. (I have the 3D ones).

If bulk is an issue, try a couple of paracord prussic loops. Or maybe some 3/8" utility rope instead of paracord. Big enough to grab with gloved hands, stiff enough to easily hook with a 'biner to attach your pack or quiver or whatever. Soft enough to coil up when you pack your line away.

 

[BigAl]

I already own a figure 8.....I purchased in anticipation of rappelling with it. My question was to learn about the need for another device than friction hitches if it was advised and the reasons. As a newbie on the art of 2TC and rappelling understanding the WHY helps one value all the options available. Thanks for all the information and now I can plug it into my process going forward. Of course safety is paramount and next is simplicity. One of the reasons I ask the question is I did see an individual using....only....a hitch of some kind and force feeding rope to rappel. Not asking because I'm unaware of inherent problems that might be there.

 

[Iron_llama]

I already own a figure 8.....I purchased in anticipation of rappelling with it. My question was to learn about the need for another device than friction hitches if it was advised and the reasons. As a newbie on the art of 2TC and rappelling understanding the WHY helps one value all the options available. Thanks for all the information and now I can plug it into my process going forward. Of course safety is paramount and next is simplicity. One of the reasons I ask the question is I did see an individual using....only....a hitch of some kind and force feeding rope to rappel. Not asking because I'm unaware of inherent problems that might be there.

If I understand your question correctly, you want to know why a descender is necessary if we already have a friction hitch. It's necessary because descent generates far more friction than climbing does; descending solely on a hitch will likely melt your ropes, even on a short descent from hunting height. Your fig-8 will take both your weight and the friction in descent; your hitch will see only a small fraction of either. I put my fig-8 above my climbing hitch, on a sling or long bridge, depending on which saddle I'm in. I climb (1-stick for now, but getting into 2TC) on a friction hitch on my rappel line; at height I switch to the same dedicated tether I use to bypass limbs and whatnot and tend enough slack into my rappel line to install the fig-8. So I don't need to use an autoblock in addition to my climbing hitch. I think @John RB has a video demonstrating rappelling on hitches, but clarifies that this is an emergency option that will likely damage the ropes involved - since I've tagged him maybe he can correct me if I've remembered his video wrong. I know he rappels on a munter, and not his climbing hitches.

Have I answered the question you were asking?

 

[John RB]

I haven't read the whole thread but just replying to confirm what was just stated: single rope rappel on JUST a friction hitch is NOT a good idea. Too much heat, difficult to control, likely to jam your hitch, and possibly cause ya to get stuck on a jammed hitch.

In the opening seconds of this video, I am rappelling from 20ft on JUST a pair of friction hitches using heat resistant cord... and even with my non jamming hitch, it's hard to do, and going really slow, they get quite hot. I don't recommend this. In an emergency, I would still be using my foot as a brake of some sort.

In this video, I demonstrate how I prefer to rappel. Make sure you're using a friction hitch which can be broken under load... with nothing under your feet. Choices from my toolbox: Double Michoacán, 523JRB Ascender Hitch (used here) or the newest Longhorn Agile Hitch. If you're using a figure 8, ask yourself if it's possible to drop it... for me, that is a deal breaker. Anything i need must be undroppable.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

 

[BigAl]

If I understand your question correctly, you want to know why a descender is necessary if we already have a friction hitch. It's necessary because descent generates far more friction than climbing does; descending solely on a hitch will likely melt your ropes, even on a short descent from hunting height. Your fig-8 will take both your weight and the friction in descent; your hitch will see only a small fraction of either. I put my fig-8 above my climbing hitch, on a sling or long bridge, depending on which saddle I'm in. I climb (1-stick for now, but getting into 2TC) on a friction hitch on my rappel line; at height I switch to the same dedicated tether I use to bypass limbs and whatnot and tend enough slack into my rappel line to install the fig-8. So I don't need to use an autoblock in addition to my climbing hitch. I think @John RB has a video demonstrating rappelling on hitches, but clarifies that this is an emergency option that will likely damage the ropes involved - since I've tagged him maybe he can correct me if I've remembered his video wrong. I know he rappels on a munter, and not his climbing hitches.

Have I answered the question you were asking?

YUP

 

[BK_special]

Been lurking on this site for a few years now. Started off on API sticks with a DIY lone wolf seat platform. Gave one sticking a shot for a season, but didn't like making moves while dangling from a tether and hated retrieving my rappel rope. It seemed like my quick link always got stuck in a crotch and I would have to climb back up to get it. Last season I exclusively used three cut down API sticks with cable aiders and a slanted scout on my topmost step. I wasn't 100% happy with the three sticks, but was skeptical of 2TC since I didn't like one sticking.

I decided to give 2TC a shot this week since I already had everything I needed, and I was pleasantly surprised at how much easier I found it than one sticking. Did my third climb ever this afternoon and got to hunting height in 5:30. It was also way quieter than moving a stick and popping rope in/out of a cam cleat. I will probably practice a few more times then try on a tree with a branch or two to pass.

If this ends up being my go to climbing method, I'll need to revisit my platform. I have four pioneer steps on an OCB that I was using in conjunction with the scout, but I lean pretty much 100% of the time so I doubt I will be happy with those. Might give one of the larger platforms like the mission or the predator XL a shot if I don't have to carry sticks anymore.

 

[Iron_llama]

Been lurking on this site for a few years now. Started off on API sticks with a DIY lone wolf seat platform. Gave one sticking a shot for a season, but didn't like making moves while dangling from a tether and hated retrieving my rappel rope. It seemed like my quick link always got stuck in a crotch and I would have to climb back up to get it. Last season I exclusively used three cut down API sticks with cable aiders and a slanted scout on my topmost step. I wasn't 100% happy with the three sticks, but was skeptical of 2TC since I didn't like one sticking.

I decided to give 2TC a shot this week since I already had everything I needed, and I was pleasantly surprised at how much easier I found it than one sticking. Did my third climb ever this afternoon and got to hunting height in 5:30. It was also way quieter than moving a stick and popping rope in/out of a cam cleat. I will probably practice a few more times then try on a tree with a branch or two to pass.

If this ends up being my go to climbing method, I'll need to revisit my platform. I have four pioneer steps on an OCB that I was using in conjunction with the scout, but I lean pretty much 100% of the time so I doubt I will be happy with those. Might give one of the larger platforms like the mission or the predator XL a shot if I don't have to carry sticks anymore.

The only trouble I've ever had retrieving my rappel line, is when I forgot to attach my pulldown line first. Which I've done more times than I care to remember, let alone admit. On a few trees, I've adjusted so I'm coming down a different face of the tree than I hunted from, to make the rappel and retrieve easier.

 

[TommyDee]

And….back on topic. Why don’t I 2TC? after having some great practice last weekend on 12” and smaller trees, i tried some larger ones (18-24”), and i really suck at the larger trees. Tried leg strap, it just complicates things. I did some scouting on the 4th, again yesterday, and also remember last season having to compromise my location based on no crotched trees (SRT), and most trees with the cover i need are in that 16-24”diameter range. So I’m picking up a one stick from RDA, but will keep my footloop tether in my dump pouch for emergencies, or for in season scouting/ground hunting when my baseline plan is to NOT get in a tree. I expect that I’ll definitely 2TC a few times this season, as well as SRT and 1 stick depending on the situation.

 

[NMSbowhunter]

Sounds like you are doing pretty well at 2tc. Keep trying those big trees. I find they are only moderately more difficult to climb than "regular" trees. Here are a few of the larger specimens I climbed last season.

 

[NMSbowhunter]

(222) NEW 2023 2TC CLIMBING RIG - YouTube

Looks like Scott Adkins has been working on a simplified and streamlined 2TC system using Blakes hitches on his tethers. It is very close to what some of us are running. Man is he fast going up and down that tree.

I like it.