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safety with autoblock

John RB said:
This is a very good thread here, let me add a bit more. When I did that video on my "10 rules for saddle hunting climbing safety", rule 10 was that Murphy's Law is going to catch up with us, and we need to be prepared. In this thread, we are doing exactly that. The OPs question was about a friction hitch backup for a rappel device. We don't know how, why or if the rappel device could fail, but we wanna be ready for it. Somewhere above, i read someone suggest that it doesn't need to be there during rappel. I would disagree. On the way down, assuming the device can be operated with one hand:
1. Come down slowly
2. One hand tends the friction hitch backup and one hand on the device.
3. This is going to be counterintuitive and the opposite of our reflex, but if something went wrong and our rappel got fast due to a problem, our brain instinctively tells our hands to hold on tightly. But in reality, the opposite is what to do: we have to train ourselves to let go. When we let go, the hitch will grab and we will stop. Related example: a new blakes hitch, DRT climber will often make a mistake during rappel where the rappel is getting quick and instead of loosening out grip on the friction hitch, they hold it more tightly and that makes us rappel faster. Some call it a suislide. In fact, the tautline hitch, a predecessor to Blake's hitch, has a nickname of the suislide.

Next, in the event you were mid rappel and you found yourself unexpectedly on your backup friction hitch, you still need a way down. The Hedden, Distel and most friction hitches cannot be broken using hand strength when under the full load of our body weight. You will need to unload it, and will need a backup rappel solution. This video may give you some ideas about how you can do so.



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Great points, John! We do need to practice and train ourselves mentally to let go and not tighten up when the rappel is getting too quick so that in a fall it comes natural. In police work we were taught to always run scenarios during down times so that we would be mentally prepared in an emergency, because during an emergency we don't have the capacity to stop and think and evaluate the situation. Muscle memory is important in how we react without thinking. That is why I also practice locking the gate on my biners even at ground level.
 
I bought triple action biners because after my first few climbs I realized I had forgotten to screw a few down. And with regard to police work, let's just say after 30 years, I dealt with an emergency every now and then.
 
I was out practicing today and was wondering if there was any issue tying a couple of overhands on a bite above the madrock as a backup while hunting instead of using a prusik type friction hitch.
 
ww874 said:
I was out practicing today and was wondering if there was any issue tying a couple of overhands on a bite above the madrock as a backup while hunting instead of using a prusik type friction hitch.
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They have a video I believe VTBow posted showing the suggested way to tie a Madrock off. The only issues with over hand on a bite is if the knot binds. That helps with the hands free part not the rappel.
 
Apex7 said:
I use an auto block above my GRIGRI PLUS while at hunting height. But when I'm rappelling I put it below my Grigri on my linemans loop or on my Transformer a loop that sets low on the saddle. The Madrock and Grigri aren't meant to be used hands free. I use a sort hollow block and you suppose to have the rope in you brake hand which is where my auto block is. I use it to go hands free to take down steps or a platform or a one stick. I don't know how you possibly get the auto block stuck in the device. I put my hand on the auto block which is at least a foot and a half away from the device. Like I said you do need a brake hand on the rope. The F4 and FCX are to made to be hands free . I have the Madrock also but I use my Grigri plus . I'm going to purchase a FCX or the F4 . I have use the F4 once and do like it.
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Same here, except that I went with the MadRock Safeguard. While doing my "practice rappels" this off- season, especially with leaning trees, I've learned (from 3-4 ft up,) that when I'm coming down & my center of gravity shifts, causing a swing, my first impulse is to reach for the tree with my right hand, (I'm right-handed) & let go of the brake line. As long as I let go of the MadRock at the same time, no problem. But if I don't, there's no tension on the brake line.

So, for me, being fully aware of mfr. recommendations, & accepting all risk, the auto block goes down low on the brake line when I'm coming down, & is connected to me at my center point. It's far enough away from the Safeguard (over a foot) that I'm not concerned with it ever feeding into the device. My brake hand is over it & tends it on the way down, as the brake line slides thru my hand. I've practiced letting go of the line & keeping the Safeguard open-the auto block catches me in 1-3 inches of travel, & I stop at that point.

I've tried putting it over the MadRock to descend, but for me, it's way too "fiddly."
 
TradBowGuy said:
Same here, except that I went with the MadRock Safeguard. While doing my "practice rappels" this off- season, especially with leaning trees, I've learned (from 3-4 ft up,) that when I'm coming down & my center of gravity shifts, causing a swing, my first impulse is to reach for the tree with my right hand, (I'm right-handed) & let go of the brake line. As long as I let go of the MadRock at the same time, no problem. But if I don't, there's no tension on the brake line.

So, for me, being fully aware of mfr. recommendations, & accepting all risk, the auto block goes down low on the brake line when I'm coming down, & is connected to me at my center point. It's far enough away from the Safeguard (over a foot) that I'm not concerned with it ever feeding into the device. My brake hand is over it & tends it on the way down, as the brake line slides thru my hand. I've practiced letting go of the line & keeping the Safeguard open-the auto block catches me in 1-3 inches of travel, & I stop at that point.

I've tried putting it over the MadRock to descend, but for me, it's way too "fiddly."
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What do you mean by fiddly? Everyone does what works for them but who started that rumor about the autoblock feeding into the safeguard? Feeding into the device was never the concern. I still can’t figure out where that rumor came from. If anything, if the prusik hit the safeguard on the brake line side, it would “tend the autoblock” which wouldn’t allow it to grab, rather than feeding into the device and jamming it. The concern is the brake line has to be able to stretch and feed back into the device if dynamically loaded. This helps absorb for and take some stress off the pin. If that doesn’t happen the pin can (and has; hence the warning) break causing catastrophic failure. Ideally you would never shock load your device while rappelling and that’s why so many accept the risk, But I am a firm believer in Murphy’s law.
 
Something I've noticed with my particular setup, 9mm canyon elite rope with a 6.8mm sterling hollow block cord, is the sterling hollowblock does not grab very well. A 3 wrap autoblock hitch won't grab and hold me at all. 4 wraps will grab but it will slip a bit. I was actually wondering if that slippage would would work to my advantage and allow some backfeed into the device in the event of a dynamic load.
Also I found when trying the sterling hollowblock cord above the device, the only friction hitch I found that held all of my 205 lb weight reliably was a standard prusik. Standard Klemhiest or Heddon would slip with only 3 wraps and because the cord is 13 1/2" 4 wraps makes the cord too short. This seems like an issue that should be easy solved but it's not. I'm still searching for solid approved backup method. And for those who would suggest using a different rappel device, I have tried a figure eight with the autoblock and in my inexperienced opinion the madrock is much easier to use.
 
Ge
ww874 said:
Something I've noticed with my particular setup, 9mm canyon elite rope with a 6.8mm sterling hollow block cord, is the sterling hollowblock does not grab very well. A 3 wrap autoblock hitch won't grab and hold me at all. 4 wraps will grab but it will slip a bit. I was actually wondering if that slippage would would work to my advantage and allow some backfeed into the device in the event of a dynamic load.
Also I found when trying the sterling hollowblock cord above the device, the only friction hitch I found that held all of my 205 lb weight reliably was a standard prusik. Standard Klemhiest or Heddon would slip with only 3 wraps and because the cord is 13 1/2" 4 wraps makes the cord too short. This seems like an issue that should be easy solved but it's not. I'm still searching for solid approved backup method. And for those who would suggest using a different rappel device, I have tried a figure eight with the autoblock and in my inexperienced opinion the madrock is much easier to use.
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Get you a 7mm eye to eye cord somewhere between 24 and 30 inches long. It’ll work much better and allow you to try more advanced hitches
 
To many people it seems to me are over thinking things. If everyone would use the common sense we were born with we would be better off.
 
I couldn't agree more. The more I practice the more things become more clear.
 
ww874 said:
Something I've noticed with my particular setup, 9mm canyon elite rope with a 6.8mm sterling hollow block cord, is the sterling hollowblock does not grab very well. A 3 wrap autoblock hitch won't grab and hold me at all. 4 wraps will grab but it will slip a bit. I was actually wondering if that slippage would would work to my advantage and allow some backfeed into the device in the event of a dynamic load.
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ww874-For what it's worth, I also have a 9mm Canyon Elite rappel rope. I got a 13.5 in. 6mm Sterling auto block loop,(not hollow, but normal cord,) and it holds my 205 lb just fine when tied as the "standard" auto block. You might want to try one-I got mine on Amazon.
 
ww874 said:
Something I've noticed with my particular setup, 9mm canyon elite rope with a 6.8mm sterling hollow block cord, is the sterling hollowblock does not grab very well. A 3 wrap autoblock hitch won't grab and hold me at all. 4 wraps will grab but it will slip a bit. I was actually wondering if that slippage would would work to my advantage and allow some backfeed into the device in the event of a dynamic load.
Also I found when trying the sterling hollowblock cord above the device, the only friction hitch I found that held all of my 205 lb weight reliably was a standard prusik. Standard Klemhiest or Heddon would slip with only 3 wraps and because the cord is 13 1/2" 4 wraps makes the cord too short. This seems like an issue that should be easy solved but it's not. I'm still searching for solid approved backup method. And for those who would suggest using a different rappel device, I have tried a figure eight with the autoblock and in my inexperienced opinion the madrock is much easier to use.
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I bought a couple of 6.8mm Sterling Hollow Block Prusik loops just to test them last year and see how they perform. Long story short, I was surprised to hear that a 3 wrap Hedden would slip. I literally just got out of bed at 1am and went to the basement and made a quick 3 wrap Hedden using the Sterling hollow block on Canyon Elite. I put 290 lbs on it. No movement and i believe it's good much higher. Let's figure this out... i might guess that you might have a 2 wrap Hedden instead of 3? Can you post a photo of the hitch?
ffc828da9ddd623a906a42e977b834cb.jpg


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Hi John
Actually I think I mistakenly confused the Hedden knot with the Klemheist. I retested both today I found this Hedden knot did grab and held me fine. If anything it was difficult to break after loading but as you say it will definitely hold. hed.jpg


Here is a picture of the Klemheist I tied. This knot will definitely NOT hold me.
klem.jpg
 
I guess being new to all this (combined with my age) I'm finding while testing and learning how to tie various hitches it's easy to get confused. I feel with this cord a standard prusik seems to release easier after loading.
 
ww874 said:
I guess being new to all this (combined with my age) I'm finding while testing and learning how to tie various hitches it's easy to get confused. I feel with this cord a standard prusik seems to release easier after loading.
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Ok, mystery solved. Great. I recently did a video on the Hedden. And i show the relationship to the Klemheist. The Hedden is extremely reliable, holds its shape well and is always "ready", perfect for a backup. I am yet to find any applications for an Autoblock in anything i do. And I only use a Prussik in applications where I need a friction hitch which holds in both directions without being retied... and there are not many of those.

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Here's the photo of the 3 wrap Hedden, holding 290lbs, using Sterling Hollow Block on Canyon Elite. Now, if you found yourself unexpectedly being the source of that load, do not expect to be able to break that friction hitch under load of your body. You will need to unload it. I made some content on that as well. Video title is: Self Rescue After Loss of footing, 8 scenarios.
93e054ce1e00f257db516d3b0fd88f42.jpg


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Shapeshifter said:
I'm definitely going to give this go this summer and use it during the upcoming season. Sweet and simple! Always amazed at how innovative you guys are on here. I just wish I would have known about this earlier, would have used it this past season.
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In case anyone is wondering how tough it is to “break a Cornell under load or to utilize it above your belay device, here is Mark from Swamp N Stomp doing a video showing the same back up we showed him for his climb and rappel. He’s a size 42 waist and north of 250 lbs for anyone wondering how well the Cornell works
 
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