safety with autoblock

[Fl Canopy Stalker]

Madhunts is posting an update to the friction hitch back up above the device. Looking forward to hearing how the new hitch worked and seeing how he liked using an elongated version of a tender above the hitch….

Backing Up Your Safeguard UPDATE! #shorts

Wood Saddles Safety Video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xHJEoChtZnwMADHUNTS Website: https://madhuntsadventures.com/MADHUNTS Adventures Saddle Review Playl...

youtube.com

 

[MADhunts]

Madhunts is posting an update to the friction hitch back up above the device. Looking forward to hearing how the new hitch worked and seeing how he liked using an elongated version of a tender above the hitch….

Backing Up Your Safeguard UPDATE! #shorts

Wood Saddles Safety Video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xHJEoChtZnwMADHUNTS Website: https://madhuntsadventures.com/MADHUNTS Adventures Saddle Review Playl...

youtube.com

I have a couple different sewn eye to eye prusik cords that I've been playing with but they have their issues. One is too thick (8mm) and one (6mm) works great but is too short so I'm going to make my own and see how that works. If you know where I can get a longer 6mm eye to eye cord let me know. I'm also thinking about running a shorter backup bridge for rappelling to clean things up so it might be a bit before I can put together a video on it. Stay tuned...

 

[Brocky]

Using just a piece of cord and tying a stopper after tying the hitch allows you to get the length just right, Schwabish hitch below. And the knot also works as a tender.

 

[Fl Canopy Stalker]

Using just a piece of cord and tying a stopper after tying the hitch allows you to get the length just right, Schwabish hitch below. And the knot also works as a tender.
View attachment 82447

I’ve done something similar with eye to eye Schwabisch but added a couple of “cobra weaves” under it… I know you are familiar with more hitches (and variations) than probably anyone on this site. After our meet up, several guys are trying out the Cornell hitch which also breaks pretty easily after being loaded and can self tend because of the wrap underneath. It works even better with a tender though. Have you played with any variations of the Cornell @Brocky ? The 4 wrap is harder to release and self tend, but the 3 wrap version is truly a speed hitch. I’ve gone to it on my lineman’s rope set ups and as the back up for any mechanicals I run these days.

 

[ww874]

I’m pretty new here and to saddle hunting. I’ve rappelled a handful of times just with the Madrock and thought it worked great. Being a new saddle hunter and wanting to be as safe as possible I researched online and saw the videos suggesting to back up the Madrock from the linesman’s loop with an auto block. I tried that and thought it worked great until I saw this thread. Today I tried both methods of backing up the device from above and neither method worked for me. Trying to manipulate the device arm while tending the hitch was ridiculously difficult and the carabiner method seems very gimmicky to me. So I settled on adding a prusik above the device while I’m hunting and when it comes time rappel I’ll remove the prusik and just use the madrock. Wish I could have kept using the lineman’s loop method because it did seem to work great.

 

[John RB]

New one-sticker here....so I have all the goodies to repel and one stick now, but question is how to back up a madrock with the autoblock. I'm a bit confused on location and use. Any help/pics/advice would be appreciated.

I realize this thread has been cooking for a while. But when it comes to a backup friction hitch, especially for a new climber, reliabile readiness to hold, and easy to tie are the most important attributes. I believe the Hedden Knot is best. You can buy a sewn prusik loop and it couldn't be easier to tie. Just watch the 1st parts of my video if interested. Cheers.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

 

[Fl Canopy Stalker]

I’m pretty new here and to saddle hunting. I’ve repelled a handful of times just with the Madrock and thought it worked great. Being a new saddle hunter and wanting to be as safe as possible I researched online and saw the videos suggesting to back up the Madrock from the linesman’s loop with an auto block. I tried that and thought it worked great until I saw this thread. Today I tried both methods of backing up the device from above and neither method worked for me. Trying to manipulate the device arm while tending the hitch was ridiculously difficult and the carabiner method seems very gimmicky to me. So I settled on adding a prusik above the device while I’m hunting and when it comes time repel I’ll remove the prusik and just use the madrock. Wish I could have kept using the lineman’s loop method because it did seem to work great.

How are you “tending” the hitch? Before you rappel, the hitch above the device needs to be loose not tight. A “small” cheap key style carabiner or s biner with paracord tied to the end, tends it for you while simultaneously allowing you to man the brake line and keep your entire hand on the handle. Another important thing is hitch selection. The schwabisch works well as does the distel however both can be hard to release if you ever loaded them. In my experience the Cornell Hitch (a hitch created by an actual world renowned tree and mountain climber) provides a very reliable bite while still being easy enough to break free after loading it.

 

[ww874]

By tending I mean trying to keep my fingers on top of hitch (distel) and trying to keep it as close to the madrock as possible to make sure it didn't grab and get loaded as I descended. It seems intuitive to me that one hand should be firmly controlling the lever of the madrock (not trying to manage that and something else) and the other the brake line. I also found the carabiner and rope method wasn't always reliable either. To me it felt like a rube goldbreg solution and just more stuff I'd need to manage and store. I realize I am totally inexperienced but I'm starting to think it's possible I've watched too much youtube and have overthought this. Since the first time I used the madrock device I never felt unsafe or not in control and although the instructions do explicitly state not to back it up from below nowhere did I see a recommendation to backup from above. I did see you're supposed to keep your hand on the brake line at all times so that's why I add my hitch when at height.
As an aside I'd just like to say thanks to the people on this site for taking the time to share their knowledge. It's been a great resource for me and I hope one day I'll be able to help someone else.

 

[MADhunts]

By tending I mean trying to keep my fingers on top of hitch (distel) and trying to keep it as close to the madrock as possible to make sure it didn't grab and get loaded as I descended. It seems intuitive to me that one hand should be firmly controlling the lever of the madrock (not trying to manage that and something else) and the other the brake line. I also found the carabiner and rope method wasn't always reliable either. To me it felt like a rube goldbreg solution and just more stuff I'd need to manage and store. I realize I am totally inexperienced but I'm starting to think it's possible I've watched too much youtube and have overthought this. Since the first time I used the madrock device I never felt unsafe or not in control and although the instructions do explicitly state not to back it up from below nowhere did I see a recommendation to backup from above. I did see you're supposed to keep your hand on the brake line at all times so that's why I add my hitch when at height.
As an aside I'd just like to say thanks to the people on this site for taking the time to share their knowledge. It's been a great resource for me and I hope one day I'll be able to help someone else.

ww874, I too was using an auto block (incorrectly) below the device and even though I thought it worked great, I learned that it was not the proper way to back up the Safeguard so I have stopped that method. I would agree with you that finding a system that works above the device is a bit more tricky but I would encourage you to continue trying different hitches and methods even if it means you have more stuff to manage and store. Your safety is worth it. I am still working on it as well and I plan to continue until I find what works for me or until I use a method enough times that it just becomes easier. The Cornell hitch that FL Canopy Stalker is talking about really works great! I saw it in action at the FL Saddle Hunter Meetup a week or so ago.

 

[MADhunts]

I realize this thread has been cooking for a while. But when it comes to a backup friction hitch, especially for a new climber, reliabile readiness to hold, and easy to tie are the most important attributes. I believe the Hedden Knot is best. You can buy a sewn prusik loop and it couldn't be easier to tie. Just watch the 1st parts of my video if interested. Cheers.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

Thanks, John! I'll check it out.

 

[ww874]

Hi guys
Wow I'm fell like I'm talking to celebrities. (I've watched a ton of your videos). I agree about John's Hedden knot, I tried it today and that's what I plan on using to backup my device while at height. When it comes to rappelling, maybe I'm too inexperienced to know better but I don't feel unsafe at as I descend. But then again I'm new and I will continue to watch your videos and if you come up with something that works I will definitely give it a try.

 

[Fl Canopy Stalker]

Hi guys
Wow I'm fell like I'm talking to celebrities. (I've watched a ton of your videos). I agree about John's Hedden knot, I tried it today and that's what I plan on using to backup my device while at height. When it comes to rappelling, maybe I'm too inexperienced to know better but I don't feel unsafe at as I descend. But then again I'm new and I will continue to watch your videos and if you come up with something that works I will definitely give it a try.

We got the “unfortunate” opportunity to see a guy who was operating a belay device hands free during the meetup have a fall. He wasn’t holding his brake line and rolled to the cam side to reach down and pull up his one stick. Whether it be the device or whether something caught his handle, his belay device lost its hold on the rope and dropped him about 5’ straight to the ground. It happened so quickly that he didn’t have time to react. Fortunately he was not injured, but I think it was an eye opening experience for everyone who happened to see him fall about the importance of manning the brake line or backing up your device properly.

 

[ww874]

That is very informative. I was thinking about how I manage retrieving my one stock. I had been tying a quick alpine butterfly just underneath it for the short time it took me to pull the stick off. But now after reading this thread I guess I could just retie the hitch above. I noticed you said nobody was sure if it was the device or user error. I would think if the device failed it would have been obvious upon inspection. Did anyone look at it?

 

[ww874]

As an aside on one of my first few climbs while I was practicing standing on the platform I slipped a bit to my cam side and just naturally grabbed for something, which in this case turned out to be the device. I was just trying to get a hold of something and I quickly realized I had the handle of the madrock and it was coming up. I immediately let go of it but it scared me pretty good. Just goes to show you can watch hours of video but nothing beats getting field experience. Since then I really try to be super cognizant being careful what I grab.

 

[Fl Canopy Stalker]

That is very informative. I was thinking about how I manage retrieving my one stock. I had been tying a quick alpine butterfly just underneath it for the short time it took me to pull the stick off. But now after reading this thread I guess I could just retie the hitch above. I noticed you said nobody was sure if it was the device or user error. I would think if the device failed it would have been obvious upon inspection. Did anyone look at it?

Some belay device can release on their own if they are rolled too far to one side, some can release if they are not tensioned on the brake line side. That is not a device failure, it actually warns you of these possibilities in the warning labels.

 

[John RB]

This is a very good thread here, let me add a bit more. When I did that video on my "10 rules for saddle hunting climbing safety", rule 10 was that Murphy's Law is going to catch up with us, and we need to be prepared. In this thread, we are doing exactly that. The OPs question was about a friction hitch backup for a rappel device. We don't know how, why or if the rappel device could fail, but we wanna be ready for it. Somewhere above, i read someone suggest that it doesn't need to be there during rappel. I would disagree. On the way down, assuming the device can be operated with one hand:
1. Come down slowly
2. One hand tends the friction hitch backup and one hand on the device.
3. This is going to be counterintuitive and the opposite of our reflex, but if something went wrong and our rappel got fast due to a problem, our brain instinctively tells our hands to hold on tightly. But in reality, the opposite is what to do: we have to train ourselves to let go. When we let go, the hitch will grab and we will stop. Related example: a new blakes hitch, DRT climber will often make a mistake during rappel where the rappel is getting quick and instead of loosening out grip on the friction hitch, they hold it more tightly and that makes us rappel faster. Some call it a suislide. In fact, the tautline hitch, a predecessor to Blake's hitch, has a nickname of the suislide.

Next, in the event you were mid rappel and you found yourself unexpectedly on your backup friction hitch, you still need a way down. The Hedden, Distel and most friction hitches cannot be broken using hand strength when under the full load of our body weight. You will need to unload it, and will need a backup rappel solution. This video may give you some ideas about how you can do so.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

 

[Brocky]

I’ve done something similar with eye to eye Schwabisch but added a couple of “cobra weaves” under it… I know you are familiar with more hitches (and variations) than probably anyone on this site. After our meet up, several guys are trying out the Cornell hitch which also breaks pretty easily after being loaded and can self tend because of the wrap underneath. It works even better with a tender though. Have you played with any variations of the Cornell @Brocky ? The 4 wrap is harder to release and self tend, but the 3 wrap version is truly a speed hitch. I’ve gone to it on my lineman’s rope set ups and as the back up for any mechanicals I run these days.

The Cornell is a nice hitch, I’m going through the ones I know looking for more that self tend, seems those bind the least. I’ll post the better ones in the friction hitch thread.

 

[Apex7]

I use an auto block above my GRIGRI PLUS while at hunting height. But when I'm rappelling I put it below my Grigri on my linemans loop or on my Transformer a loop that sets low on the saddle. The Madrock and Grigri aren't meant to be used hands free. I use a sort hollow block and you suppose to have the rope in you brake hand which is where my auto block is. I use it to go hands free to take down steps or a platform or a one stick. I don't know how you possibly get the auto block stuck in the device. I put my hand on the auto block which is at least a foot and a half away from the device. Like I said you do need a brake hand on the rope. The F4 and FCX are to made to be hands free . I have the Madrock also but I use my Grigri plus . I'm going to purchase a FCX or the F4 . I have use the F4 once and do like it.

 

[MADhunts]

We got the “unfortunate” opportunity to see a guy who was operating a belay device hands free during the meetup have a fall. He wasn’t holding his brake line and rolled to the cam side to reach down and pull up his one stick. Whether it be the device or whether something caught his handle, his belay device lost its hold on the rope and dropped him about 5’ straight to the ground. It happened so quickly that he didn’t have time to react. Fortunately he was not injured, but I think it was an eye opening experience for everyone who happened to see him fall about the importance of manning the brake line or backing up your device properly.

ww874, this example that Fl Canopy Stalker is talking about happened while the guy was giving a demonstration to a few other guys so we can only assume he was somewhat familiar with and comfortable using the device. That being said, I would encourage you to not allow yourself to be comfortable rappelling without a backup. I know what you mean about "feeling safe" while using the device alone but when and/or if an incident happens it'll be too late to wish you had the extra backup in place. I would encourage you to find something short term that works and use it temporarily until you find what you really like and then switch over.

 

[ww874]

Thanks Matt you are right. I was actually searching for that "something" when I saw your post.