What do you consider an acceptable 40yard group to feel confident on an animal.

[Nutterbuster]

And it won't be like this if we don't do well to represent hunting, probably.

It won't be like this period if we don't start thinking big picture.

We went from 1 billion people globally to 8 billion in 200 years (plus livestock which take up disproportionate resources due to our farming methods). Something like half or more of that 8 billion still live their lives largely malnourished, disease ridden, illiterate, and partaking of a very small proportion of the resources you and I take. They dont get to have cars and computers and Whoppers and Sitka. But, hallelujah, there are more people more well off and consuming more resources every year. Problem is we can't support 8 billion people living our lifestyle.

How long to you think 15 million hunters and their hobby will matter in light of billions trying to live that American dream? How much influence does 4% (and shrinking) of the US population have even in home court?

The end of the world as we know it has come and gone. Several times. We've got to get people to start thinking big picture.

 

[PEEJAY]

This kinda goes along with the theme of 40 yard shots. This isn't hard fact but very interesting. When a whitetail's head is down the can drop way quicker and "jummp the string." I have always kept this in mind while shooting 30 yd shots. growingdeer.tv is not as realistic of a hunting scenario as most hunters would like to have either. Their deer are not as pressured and wise as some of our public areas. Another thing about jumping the string i learned on this forum. i cant remember who i was talking to on a thread but they definitely changed my mind on the topic of bow noise vs. arrow noise. If you clap in your stand at a deer (dont do this mid hunt on a shooter haha) or something creaks, snaps or pops, they usually just look up at the sound. Ive rarely if ever had one dip, duck, and dodge unless you let one fly at em. I truly believe they are reacting to the sound of the arrow closing in on them. So at 40 yds, head down, and loud arrow flying...there's a way better chance big Loui is gonna "Neo (matrix)" your shot. I always consider broadhead and vane choice now. I sold my Annihilator broadheads after shooting a few times because they were so loud. i like solid 2 blades now with no vents and aae vanes instead of the blazers. Blazers def help stabilize better but take the time to tune and your gravy. Sorry for the long post and all the movie references... "im all jacked up on mountain dew!"

 

[gcr0003]

It won't be like this period if we don't start thinking big picture.

We went from 1 billion people globally to 8 billion in 200 years (plus livestock which take up disproportionate resources due to our farming methods). Something like half or more of that 8 billion still live their lives largely malnourished, disease ridden, illiterate, and partaking of a very small proportion of the resources you and I take. They dont get to have cars and computers and Whoppers and Sitka. But, hallelujah, there are more people more well off and consuming more resources every year. Problem is we can't support 8 billion people living our lifestyle.

How long to you think 15 million hunters and their hobby will matter in light of billions trying to live that American dream? How much influence does 4% (and shrinking) of the US population have even in home court?

The end of the world as we know it has come and gone. Several times. We've got to get people to start thinking big picture.

When are you running for city council? Nutterbuster is a politician in the making. We gotta get his political career going so he can advocate for us!

 

[thedutchtouch]

I've participated, so including any perceived judgement towards myself. I think it is interesting that the original poster asked about what group size was "acceptable" to "feel confident on an animal". I took that to mean what range do I think I have a good enough chance to kill it with a single shot. I know that with the ranges I posted that there's still a chance I screw up. That's on me, but small enough chance that I am confident in my abilities. Less so after the pushups, so perhaps walking the circle in a bit, but I digress...

We've gone way off the rails into personal ethics and whether shooting or killing one type of animal is better than another. Perhaps that's what the OP intended, perhaps not Now, @Lcoop was your question a practical "how do I translate range time to woods distances?" Or an ethical exploration of the opinions of strangers?

Gotta love the tail end of the off season!

 

[PEEJAY]

Right. I'm saying the beef was almost certainly no less than 8 months and no more than 24. 9-12 most likely.

We all eat babies or preteens daily. Most of them are raised in their own filth in an environment as close to hell as I can imagine. Pumped full of antibiotics and supplements because they're living too close to each other and eating a diet that won't sustain life. Incapable of fulfilling natural instincts. And there are substantially more chickens, cows, pigs, etc than there are lions and tigers and bears and deers. Us farming them does WAY more damage to the global ecosystem than anything you or I can do or not do as hunters. And it's arguably bad for us as well. Animal husbandry has cooked up a host of species-crossing microbes that mess us up, to say nothing of environmental pollution.

I think @kyler1945's point is that if you want to reduce suffering, there are bigger fish to fry than a deer. From a utilitarian perspective, you could swear off chicken and gut shoot every deer you ever saw, and probably still tip the balance of your life from "more suffering caused" to "less suffering caused."

I'm overstating for impact, but if you want to be an ethical hunter or eater or whatever then I think there's a lot of thinking to be done outside the fence of our culture.

Its only been a few years but i havent bought a single pack of chicken or any other meat for the home solely for the fact of how its farmed and all the direct impacts it has on the enviroment and my health. We do buy about 50% of our fish and shrimp now because we finally moved away from the beach but i still try and keep that to a minimum. I do go out to eat and buy a burger etc. about once a week but deer and seafood i kill have replaced a good 80-90% of my protein now. My wife is a pescatarian now for the last 6 years and we cant keep up with the self caught stocking of our aquatic critters freezer. 90% of my fish is speared too which also helps with sustainability. virtually zero bycatch or accidental death. We do what we can without being vegan cuz that for sure aint happenin

 

[thedutchtouch]

Its only been a few years but i havent bought a single pack of chicken or any other meat for the home solely for the fact of how its farmed and all the direct impacts it has on the enviroment and my health. We do buy about 50% of our fish and shrimp now because we finally moved away from the beach but i still try and keep that to a minimum. I do go out to eat and buy a burger etc. about once a week but deer and seafood i kill have replaced a good 80-90% of my protein now. My wife is a pescatarian now for the last 6 years and we cant keep up with the self caught stocking of our aquatic critters freezer. 90% of my fish is speared too which also helps with sustainability. virtually zero bycatch or accidental death. We do what we can without being vegan cuz that for sure aint happenin

Where do you spearfish? That something I want to try but have never seen anyone do it around here. That and bonefishing for snakehead, still haven't done that yet. (tangent alert)

 

[BTaylor]

I've participated, so including any perceived judgement towards myself. I think it is interesting that the original poster asked about what group size was "acceptable" to "feel confident on an animal". I took that to mean what range do I think I have a good enough chance to kill it with a single shot. I know that with the ranges I posted that there's still a chance I screw up. That's on me, but small enough chance that I am confident in my abilities. Less so after the pushups, so perhaps walking the circle in a bit, but I digress...

We've gone way off the rails into personal ethics and whether shooting or killing one type of animal is better than another. Perhaps that's what the OP intended, perhaps not Now, @Lcoop was your question a practical "how do I translate range time to woods distances?" Or an ethical exploration of the opinions of strangers?

Gotta love the tail end of the off season!

Man we answered his question and 4 or 5 that he prolly meant to ask. That's just how we roll I mean just from this thread alone we have determined it is not ethical to spearfish in crocs and take shots over 20 yards if you cant hit a croaker in the head every time most of the time. Furthermore Nutterbuster is running for office to pass legislation banning vegans from breathing our air because there are already too many of them and they are not very efficient at converting cow farts to a useable resource. Off with their heads, he has my vote, mail in ballot dont you know.

 

[Rutman]

It won't be like this period if we don't start thinking big picture.

We went from 1 billion people globally to 8 billion in 200 years (plus livestock which take up disproportionate resources due to our farming methods). Something like half or more of that 8 billion still live their lives largely malnourished, disease ridden, illiterate, and partaking of a very small proportion of the resources you and I take. They dont get to have cars and computers and Whoppers and Sitka. But, hallelujah, there are more people more well off and consuming more resources every year. Problem is we can't support 8 billion people living our lifestyle.

How long to you think 15 million hunters and their hobby will matter in light of billions trying to live that American dream? How much influence does 4% (and shrinking) of the US population have even in home court?

The end of the world as we know it has come and gone. Several times. We've got to get people to start thinking big picture.

Sounds like a vaccine is in order to reduce the world’s population…


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[Ontariofarmer]

It won't be like this period if we don't start thinking big picture.

We went from 1 billion people globally to 8 billion in 200 years (plus livestock which take up disproportionate resources due to our farming methods). Something like half or more of that 8 billion still live their lives largely malnourished, disease ridden, illiterate, and partaking of a very small proportion of the resources you and I take. They dont get to have cars and computers and Whoppers and Sitka. But, hallelujah, there are more people more well off and consuming more resources every year. Problem is we can't support 8 billion people living our lifestyle.

How long to you think 15 million hunters and their hobby will matter in light of billions trying to live that American dream? How much influence does 4% (and shrinking) of the US population have even in home court?

The end of the world as we know it has come and gone. Several times. We've got to get people to start thinking big picture.

This is off topic but so is the above comment. As a farmer, I cannot say I agree with everything said here. Although I usually agree with Nutterbuster. He is an expert hunter but not a farming expert.
We can feed more than 8 billion people in a sustainable way. I could go on for hours. As far as livestock and the disproportionate comment. The WEF would have you eating crickets. Most of the western part of North America is pasture maintained in a responsible way supporting thousands of tasty rib eyes
Things can be improved and are being improved in agriculture but if the government interferes like they did in Sri Lanka or Ghana we will have food inflation, starvation and civil unrest
Nutterbusters comments are annoying enough that I had to respond.
I totally agree with what he said about what distance to shoot an arrow. He certainly is an expert hunter.
I think most Dutch farmers would agree and Canadian and American farmers that if the governments of the world control how we produce food we will all starve. Just ask a former member of a collective farm in the former Soviet Union how that worked out


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[Andre Bell]

I know it will vary per situation and person, but for you is it baseball sized groups, softball, paper plate? what is considered a "good" group at 40?

I use the rule of my hand from 20 yards to 70 yards (practicing only and never in a hunting situation). If I can touch all 6 arrows with the palm of my hand consistently, I feel confident at that range.

 

[NMSbowhunter]

Food waste alone is a smoking gun that we can already produce well above the amount being actually consumed by the global population. Estimates of the carrying capacity of the Earth vary wildly from 4 billion to over 100 billion. My best guess based on what I have read is a cap out at about 11 billion in about 2070ish with most of that new population in Africa and India. I read Thomas Mathus in college but don't believe that growth can keep going forever. I think the truth is somewhere in between the Boom or Bust crowds.

All this doom and gloom over global warming or whatever the buzz word is today is, in my opinion overblown. I remember the ads way back with Leonard Nemoy in a blizzard with him warning that if nothing was done Tampa would be as cold as Buffalo, NY with a new ice age. (314) Leonard Nimoy Predicts An Ice Age Back In 1979. Fascinating! - YouTube

Be careful when listening to any of this. Politicians like to find things to scare us into going along with their schemes. How many of these leaders are poised to make a fortune off all this green energy? Who benefits? Remember, governments don't create anything. They just consume.

How did we get from 40 yard shots to Leonard Nemoy, lol?

 

[Ontariofarmer]

Food waste alone is a smoking gun that we can already produce well above the amount being actually consumed by the global population. Estimates of the carrying capacity of the Earth vary wildly from 4 billion to over 100 billion. My best guess based on what I have read is a cap out at about 11 billion in about 2070ish with most of that new population in Africa and India. I read Thomas Mathus in college but don't believe that growth can keep going forever. I think the truth is somewhere in between the Boom or Bust crowds.

All this doom and gloom over global warming or whatever the buzz word is today is, in my opinion overblown. I remember the ads way back with Leonard Nemoy in a blizzard with him warning that if nothing was done Tampa would be as cold as Buffalo, NY with a new ice age. (314) Leonard Nimoy Predicts An Ice Age Back In 1979. Fascinating! - YouTube

Be careful when listening to any of this. Politicians like to find things to scare us into going along with their schemes. How many of these leaders are poised to make a fortune off all this green energy? Who benefits? Remember, governments don't create anything. They just consume.

How did we get from 40 yard shots to Leonard Nemoy, lol?

Haha. Food waste or waist. The average North American is too fat
The Israeli agriculture shows us how to maximize agricultural output while maximizing water use efficiency. That is technology that needs to be used in Nebraska and Colorado and Arizona and California Just that one thing would have amazing results
Doing thing like that around the world would cause output to skyrocket in a sustainable way


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[PEEJAY]

Where do you spearfish? That something I want to try but have never seen anyone do it around here. That and bonefishing for snakehead, still haven't done that yet. (tangent alert)

i'll message you to avoid derailing this thread even more.

 

[thedutchtouch]

i'll message you to avoid derailing this thread even more.

But ya gotta shoot tight groups to hit a fish! Lol yeah that makes sense thanks!

 

[Ontariofarmer]

Yeah. It is derailed. Nutterbusters post on shooting an arrow is spot on


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[Nutterbuster]

This is off topic but so is the above comment. As a farmer, I cannot say I agree with everything said here. Although I usually agree with Nutterbuster. He is an expert hunter but not a farming expert.
We can feed more than 8 billion people in a sustainable way. I could go on for hours. As far as livestock and the disproportionate comment. The WEF would have you eating crickets. Most of the western part of North America is pasture maintained in a responsible way supporting thousands of tasty rib eyes
Things can be improved and are being improved in agriculture but if the government interferes like they did in Sri Lanka or Ghana we will have food inflation, starvation and civil unrest
Nutterbusters comments are annoying enough that I had to respond.
I totally agree with what he said about what distance to shoot an arrow. He certainly is an expert hunter.
I think most Dutch farmers would agree and Canadian and American farmers that if the governments of the world control how we produce food we will all starve. Just ask a former member of a collective farm in the former Soviet Union how that worked out


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I'm not an expert, and most of my friends have made observations about my occasionally abrasive nature. All good in the hood.

My exact words were "we can't support 8 billion people living our lifestyle." Add a "currently" before that phrase and I stand by it completely.

If all 8 billion or more (the most recent population estimates I've seen put us at 9 billion by around 2050, which is insane seeing as we had about 5.5 billion folks in 1993 when I was born. The population could DOUBLE in our lifetimes) of us were to start consuming obesity-levels of calories, eating avocadoes and strawberries in the dead of winter flown in by plane, throwing away half our food, driving Toyota Tundras, air-conditioning our 2,500sq/ft homes, etc...we'd crash the system according to just about every credible person that I've seen conduct that thought experiment.

Farming has stepped up in a miraculous way to feed the masses over the past 100 years. GMOs and synthetic nitrogen fertilizer are two off-hand examples. Neither is without their downside, but it's a miracle that we've done as well as we have in light of the whirlwind of change. I sincerely hope we can keep up the pace, and applaud anybody looking into implementing that change.

I will point out that much of the advancement we've seen can be traced back to the Big-Bad Government. Not all of their projects and policies work out, but tax money raised and allocated to farmers and university research have arguably kept the wolf from the door.

All this doom and gloom over global warming or whatever the buzz word is today is, in my opinion overblown.

Honestly, the reason you get to say that is because we've made HUGE changes to the way we do things in the last 50 years. Taking lead out of gasoline. Putting catalytic converters in cars. Phasing out R-22 and other ozone-depleting chemicals. Establishing regulations for industrial runoff and enforcing them. Recycling. The list goes on.

Smart people made a prediction, didn't like it, and worked to change the future. The irony is that by doing that the prediction didn't come true and people don't believe the prediction!

Be careful when listening to any of this. Politicians like to find things to scare us into going along with their schemes. How many of these leaders are poised to make a fortune off all this green energy? Who benefits? Remember, governments don't create anything. They just consume.

I'll be the first to point out the Trail of Tears, African-American slave trade, the Tuskegee Experiments, the Gnadenhutten Massacre, WW2 American Concentration Camps, MK Ultra, Human Radiation Experiments, etc. America has its sordid moments in history, just like every other institution (I'm already toeing the no-politics/religion line awful hard, so I'll refrain from pointing out the atrocities committed in the name of God and capital gains, or the interplay between all 3 players). But to say government doesn't create anything is wrong. By collecting and distributing taxes it does, in fact, generate value. The government, the universities, the churches, the general public, and the business sector working in tandem have created what to 99% of people ever born would look like paradise on earth in this country. Take any one out of the equation and we definitely wouldn't be exploring deep space, sequencing genomes, and mapping human synapses right now. Or arguing on the internet.

I like doing all of those things, and would like to keep doing them indefinitely if possible. Hence my penchant for annoying people.

Some politicians have invested in green energy. Almost all of them are also invested in big-bad petrochemicals. And a host of other things. Is it conspiratorial? Who knows. Probably. Is it more conspiratorial than baseline behavior in the political and business world? Absolutely not. Does the fact that people in power are backing a horse mean that the horse isn't real?

Sorry to everybody for completing the derailment. But I'd encourage everybody to think harder about topics like this and be willing to reexamine their assumptions. Deer hunting definitely opens up plenty of time for reflection. I'll bow out now.

 

[gcr0003]

I'm not an expert, and most of my friends have made observations about my occasionally abrasive nature. All good in the hood.

My exact words were "we can't support 8 billion people living our lifestyle." Add a "currently" before that phrase and I stand by it completely.

If all 8 billion or more (the most recent population estimates I've seen put us at 9 billion by around 2050, which is insane seeing as we had about 5.5 billion folks in 1993 when I was born. The population could DOUBLE in our lifetimes) of us were to start consuming obesity-levels of calories, eating avocadoes and strawberries in the dead of winter flown in by plane, throwing away half our food, driving Toyota Tundras, air-conditioning our 2,500sq/ft homes, etc...we'd crash the system according to just about every credible person that I've seen conduct that thought experiment.

Farming has stepped up in a miraculous way to feed the masses over the past 100 years. GMOs and synthetic nitrogen fertilizer are two off-hand examples. Neither is without their downside, but it's a miracle that we've done as well as we have in light of the whirlwind of change. I sincerely hope we can keep up the pace, and applaud anybody looking into implementing that change.

I will point out that much of the advancement we've seen can be traced back to the Big-Bad Government. Not all of their projects and policies work out, but tax money raised and allocated to farmers and university research have arguably kept the wolf from the door.



Honestly, the reason you get to say that is because we've made HUGE changes to the way we do things in the last 50 years. Taking lead out of gasoline. Putting catalytic converters in cars. Phasing out R-22 and other ozone-depleting chemicals. Establishing regulations for industrial runoff and enforcing them. Recycling. The list goes on.

Smart people made a prediction, didn't like it, and worked to change the future. The irony is that by doing that the prediction didn't come true and people don't believe the prediction!



I'll be the first to point out the Trail of Tears, African-American slave trade, the Tuskegee Experiments, the Gnadenhutten Massacre, WW2 American Concentration Camps, MK Ultra, Human Radiation Experiments, etc. America has its sordid moments in history, just like every other institution (I'm already toeing the no-politics/religion line awful hard, so I'll refrain from pointing out the atrocities committed in the name of God and capital gains, or the interplay between all 3 players). But to say government doesn't create anything is wrong. By collecting and distributing taxes it does, in fact, generate value. The government, the universities, the churches, the general public, and the business sector working in tandem have created what to 99% of people ever born would look like paradise on earth in this country. Take any one out of the equation and we definitely wouldn't be exploring deep space, sequencing genomes, and mapping human synapses right now. Or arguing on the internet.

I like doing all of those things, and would like to keep doing them indefinitely if possible. Hence my penchant for annoying people.

Some politicians have invested in green energy. Almost all of them are also invested in big-bad petrochemicals. And a host of other things. Is it conspiratorial? Who knows. Probably. Is it more conspiratorial than baseline behavior in the political and business world? Absolutely not. Does the fact that people in power are backing a horse mean that the horse isn't real?

Sorry to everybody for completing the derailment. But I'd encourage everybody to think harder about topics like this and be willing to reexamine their assumptions. Deer hunting definitely opens up plenty of time for reflection. I'll bow out now.

To the OP, I am an awful hunter; but, my best bow kills were all within 15 yards and they all didn’t go 40 yards. When I shot every day I could hit 6” pie plates at 60, baseball size at 40, and stack arrows 10-30 yards all day, everyday at the range. Guess what? I still sucked it up in the deer woods several times when it should have been easy. I’ve improved tremendously but I focus more on seeing more deer and being closer to them for chip shots. There is just no comparison to shooting at the range to shooting at live animals to me.

 

[NMSbowhunter]

We need a new thread for this sort of thing.

The truth is that the sort of things governments are proposing and pushing hard now are not possible with today's technology. There is no secret wonder science waiting in the wings to swoop in and save the day. There is no 1 to 1 replacement for fossil fuels. There just isn't. Nuclear energy is about the closest thing we have today we can realistically implement but that too is seen as dirty. But even ramping up nuclear to produce electricity is still hampered by the fact that we don't have battery technology to run vehicles in a cost-effective way to replace modern transportation. Show me a clean, cheap, easily stored, transportable, reliable, renewable power source that will run an18-wheeler 1200 miles to deliver groceries or fuel a full-size truck pulling a camper over the Rockies, or you can put in a jug and fill up your car when it runs out of fuel 20 miles from the nearest service station.

So far, no such thing exists. I thought this was a good demonstration of the shortcomings of electric as it exists today. (314) How Far Can a Gas Truck & an Electric Ford Lightning Go Towing the Same Camper On ONE Fill-up? - YouTube

I didn't even look to see the MSRP of the Ford Lightning or think about what it would cost to get it fixed if something broke on it.

One more thing and I'll be done with this and let us get back to bowhunting. I was talking to a professor one day about his Prius. He was so proud of it saying it was all electric and was not contributing to fossil fuel emissions. I asked him "you do know where electricity comes from, don't you?" He expression looked like a kid who just learned where babies come from. Priceless.

 

[raisins]

This kinda goes along with the theme of 40 yard shots. This isn't hard fact but very interesting. When a whitetail's head is down the can drop way quicker and "jummp the string." I have always kept this in mind while shooting 30 yd shots. growingdeer.tv is not as realistic of a hunting scenario as most hunters would like to have either. Their deer are not as pressured and wise as some of our public areas. Another thing about jumping the string i learned on this forum. i cant remember who i was talking to on a thread but they definitely changed my mind on the topic of bow noise vs. arrow noise. If you clap in your stand at a deer (dont do this mid hunt on a shooter haha) or something creaks, snaps or pops, they usually just look up at the sound. Ive rarely if ever had one dip, duck, and dodge unless you let one fly at em. I truly believe they are reacting to the sound of the arrow closing in on them. So at 40 yds, head down, and loud arrow flying...there's a way better chance big Loui is gonna "Neo (matrix)" your shot. I always consider broadhead and vane choice now. I sold my Annihilator broadheads after shooting a few times because they were so loud. i like solid 2 blades now with no vents and aae vanes instead of the blazers. Blazers def help stabilize better but take the time to tune and your gravy. Sorry for the long post and all the movie references... "im all jacked up on mountain dew!"

this would make a neat study

you could play the sound of a bow going off from a tree stand and then record the deer and then compare this to actual shots....if the sound of the bow by itself doesn't make them duck, then it tends to confirm the arrow noise idea

 

[DMTJAGER]

For me personally and I feel this is a very good ethical standard it's what ever maximum range I can put 9/10 FBBH broadhead tipped arrows into a 6" circle EVERY practice session shooting from as many different awkward shooting positions as I can reproduce shooting from a elevated stand
I only shoot FBBH's and only time I shoot FP's is during a 3-D shoot.
For me that range is 45 yards but so as to err on the side of caution I shorten that range to 40 yards IF conditions are perfect as the conditions and situation at the time of the shot dictate if I will take the shot or not.
In 33 years of bowhunting and over 50 deer I've taken exactly four shots over 35 yards and only one over 40 a doe at 43 yards complete pass through
At the impact she jumped slightly walked a few feet went back to eating acorns her rear feet gave out then her front and she fell over and that was it.
Was using 125grn NAP TH's. Bow was set at 68lb draw arrows were IIRC AL XX78 2314's. Total arrow weight was IIRC 450ish grains but I could be wrong on that