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Saddle Death… Stay safe out there.

How do leg straps help when your upside down? Dont all saddles come with leg straps? ( some do remove them I've heard)
It was a half joke, half truth. There was another post where someone wanted a challenge to see if someone could hang upside down and shimmy out of a saddle with leg straps and without. In truth the leg straps would help hold and support your legs while upright. When inverted they aren’t doing much. The waist belt would be doing the bulk of the holding although leg straps would add additional friction across your thighs if you did start slipping. Like I said it was made half in jest and half seriously.
 
I don’t think 60 year old men should climb trees with saddle gear either. Not because they can’t. Because WHEN they get injured, the cost of that injury is on average, much higher than the cost to a 25 year old with the same injury. We have tons of older members climbing trees. I support their right to do it. I also know there’s some with higher bone density, flexibility, dexterity, spatial awareness, training, etc. than many 25 year olds.

Just because I don’t think the risk is worth it, and just because those older guys who climb this way do think it’s worth it, doesn’t change the facts. A 60 year old breaking a rib, or an ankle, or a hip, or a back, is at far greater risk of losing significant quality of life, than a 25 year old. Pretending that isn’t so, is dumb.

I’m not 25. It’s ok to say things out loud that don’t make us feel good.
Now you've hurt my feelings you big meanie. (Mocksob . . . Mocksob) :tearsofjoy:

In reality you're right. However as a 60 year old I'm all too aware that I don't heal like I used to. With that in mind I'm a lot more cautious and think things through a lot more than I did when I was in my "indestructible" younger years.

Yes, I'm old and overweight but I account for it in making smaller moves, forgoing some of the more difficult trees and, most of all, sticking with a system I am very comfortable and experienced with.

I believe in most cases the serious issues arise when something relatively minor happens followed by that initial sense of panic and the bad snap decisions that follow. The best thing that you can do when something happens is pause and regain your composure before deciding on a next step. If you make a poor choice under stress you can easily compound your problems.
 
I agree. However, the saddle enables methods that are not possible with a tree stand harness. All methods that rely on rope hanging (SRT, JRB, one stick, 2TC) should not be assumed as safer just because you’re always attached to a tree. biggest learnings here for me, and I’m still relatively new to bowhunting and saddlehunting:
I agree. But just because something enables something doesn't mean you need to do it. Speedometers go up to 120 but you don't need to drive that fast.
 
I get why there’s an attempt to distinguish between saddle hunting and climbing but not sure I agree. Most/all hunters climb a tree to hunt from a saddle, so I consider that a required part of the saddle hunting process. The “bad” press has led me and many others new to the sport, which is most of us, to re-think the what, why, how’s and what-if’s of what we are doing, which for me has been good. Every climb has a new set of circumstances that you will never exhaust; for example, I just got caught in a surprise thunderstorm my first weekend hunting and one-sticking/rappelling right at dusk. Needless to say I haven’t done any hunting much less any rappelling in a thunderstorm. Much of what I currently do to ascend/descend the tree I learned on this “saddle hunting” forum. I am likely guilty of getting caught up in the novelty and challenge of saddle hunting and may be advancing my technique faster than my experience dictates. However, I have some rock climbing experience and consider myself in good shape, and also consider myself very meticulous when learning something new. With all that said, I don’t think the average person on here considers saddle hunting separate from climbing. I do agree though that there are more difficult/technical climbing methods and that those may not fit with “traditional” saddle hunting.


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Can't distinguish between climbing and saddle hunting? It's night and day. Are you using all of these "advanced" climbing methods with a typical stand....no, of course not. No reason to do it with a saddle either besides the "I can" and the hopeless "cool" factor.

Strap some sticks securely on a tree and leave the ropes at home.

"I don't think the average person on here considers saddle hunting separate from climbing."

You aren't paying attention to the right people then.
 
This thread has taken a turn into "ropes = danger", which I think is a weird direction.

One because I am truly skeptical from my own personal use that sticks/linesman are safer than being tied in from the ground. Linesman is a work position system and not a fall arrest system, and I would bet money the majority of guys climbing with sticks are not attaching a tether from the ground and advancing it as the climb.

And two, because we don't have any data to support that rope climbing had anything to do with this death. I have heard far more stories here of people having near misses from sticks kicking out than I have of a rope system failing. We don't know how Dane was climbing. We don't really know how we was using his Drey (or if he even was). We don't know his skill level with climbing.

Now there are systems I believe are inherently more dangerous. One sticking (as I see most do it on YouTube) and the use of aiders (especially with one sticking and especially some of the multi-step aiders) seem far more difficult and risk prone than most methods.
 
This thread has taken a turn into "ropes = danger", which I think is a weird direction.

One because I am truly skeptical from my own personal use that sticks/linesman are safer than being tied in from the ground. Linesman is a work position system and not a fall arrest system, and I would bet money the majority of guys climbing with sticks are not attaching a tether from the ground and advancing it as the climb.

And two, because we don't have any data to support that rope climbing had anything to do with this death. I have heard far more stories here of people having near misses from sticks kicking out than I have of a rope system failing. We don't know how Dane was climbing. We don't really know how we was using his Drey (or if he even was). We don't know his skill level with climbing.

Now there are systems I believe are inherently more dangerous. One sticking (as I see most do it on YouTube) and the use of aiders (especially with one sticking and especially some of the multi-step aiders) seem far more difficult and risk prone than most methods.


I believe that guys with little to no climbing experience should use the safest and most simple method possible. I do not think ropes are inherently dangerous, just not for newbies. Throw in weight and cardio and lots of guys can't realistically handle it. If you're 240, carrying a larger setup shouldn't kill you....trying to hunt tiny and not being "tiny", will.
 
This thread is a great reminder of why I love this forum. This is definitely a “hot button” topic. There are a lot of different perspectives and ideas and perhaps most importantly, feelings about this matter. And my hat is off to all of you and Dane and his family for the forum community’s ability to have a constructive and challenging conversation without slipping into argument and all that over the top stuff. Y’all are a bunch of good people and I’m greatful we have this space for sharing ideas and becoming better hunters!
 
This thread has taken a turn into "ropes = danger", which I think is a weird direction.
That may be the vibe, but I don't think that is the case. I think the most important thing to note with ropes is that there is a significant amount of training that one is supposed to go through to use them safely and properly (in any other recreational situation) and most people using them in hunting aren't doing that.

There are lots of other sketchy methods being used to climb trees. Not all of them are necessary bad and there is nothing wrong with pushing the envelope to develop something new. But there is a difference between developing a system (or product) and putting it through its motions in testing before actually implementing it for hunting.
 
That may be the vibe, but I don't think that is the case. I think the most important thing to note with ropes is that there is a significant amount of training that one is supposed to go through to use them safely and properly (in any other recreational situation) and most people using them in hunting aren't doing that.

There are lots of other sketchy methods being used to climb trees. Not all of them are necessary bad and there is nothing wrong with pushing the envelope to develop something new. But there is a difference between developing a system (or product) and putting it through its motions in testing before actually implementing it for hunting.

Some rope climbing techniques need more training than others. DRT is not the same as SRT (rope walking) is not the same as RADS is not the same as JRB. Using RADS system with a belay device that supports hands free (similar to a Petzl I'd) and a hand ascender is pretty simple and doesn't require complex knot tying. I would argue this style of climbing does not need a whole lot more training/practice than climbing sticks with a lanyard and is much safer. While these systems are borrowed from the climbing arborist world, hunters are not doing most of the complex techniques that require the most training for new arborists (rope walking, redirects, rigging, limb walking, use of saws at height, etc).

Every system of climbing the tree (and transitioning to tether) needs training and practice to be used safely and properly. Most people using these methods in hunting aren't doing that for any method.
 
When I used a hang on and harness I climbed with sticks and my Linesman's just like when saddle hunting. I attached the stand when on my last stick just like with a platform and saddle, attached tree strap and tether on the harness just like I do with my tether and bridge saddle hunting, step onto stand or platform with linesman and tether/harness... double tied into the tree....I don't see much difference between hang on and saddle as far as setup and safety with a slight advantage going for saddles...they very similar except minor little things... There was a small learning curve with the saddle vs hang on but it wasn't much.... Climbers gotta be the most dangerous IMO.....I never did it or saw anybody else advance the tree strap/tether as they climbed....everybody just wears the harness while climbing with the stand and hooks up the harness after the climb is over and u at hunting height
 
Some rope climbing techniques need more training than others. DRT is not the same as SRT (rope walking) is not the same as RADS is not the same as JRB. Using RADS system with a belay device that supports hands free (similar to a Petzl I'd) and a hand ascender is pretty simple and doesn't require complex knot tying. I would argue this style of climbing does not need a whole lot more training/practice than climbing sticks with a lanyard and is much safer. While these systems are borrowed from the climbing arborist world, hunters are not doing most of the complex techniques that require the most training for new arborists (rope walking, redirects, rigging, limb walking, use of saws at height, etc).

Every system of climbing the tree (and transitioning to tether) needs training and practice to be used safely and properly. Most people using these methods in hunting aren't doing that for any method.
I don't disagree with you again. I have done SRT myself and I don't have any training and I never felt unsafe. I'm speaking in generalities here but in the 8.5 years that I have had this site I have seen a lot of stuff that people thought was safe and wasn't at all. I think in general more straightforward climbing methods or additional training would be beneficial to the hunting population as a whole, although it might not be necessary for specific individuals. I prefer to err on the side of being extra cautious because any time we leave the ground we are adding a certain level of risk so we want to minimize that risk as much as possible.
 
When I used a hang on and harness I climbed with sticks and my Linesman's just like when saddle hunting. I attached the stand when on my last stick just like with a platform and saddle, attached tree strap and tether on the harness just like I do with my tether and bridge saddle hunting, step onto stand or platform with linesman and tether/harness... double tied into the tree....I don't see much difference between hang on and saddle as far as setup and safety with a slight advantage going for saddles...they very similar except minor little things... There was a small learning curve with the saddle vs hang on but it wasn't much.... Climbers gotta be the most dangerous IMO.....I never did it or saw anybody else advance the tree strap/tether as they climbed....everybody just wears the harness while climbing with the stand and hooks up the harness after the climb is over and u at hunting height
I beg to differ. I used a Summit climber for years and still own 1. (Haven't used it since I got my first saddle) I always wore my safety harness and advanced it up the tree as I climbed. Very easy to do and took no time at all.
 
I beg to differ. I used a Summit climber for years and still own 1. (Haven't used it since I got my first saddle) I always wore my safety harness and advanced it up the tree as I climbed. Very easy to do and took no time at all.
I did too when I had a climber. It was an annoyance, but not more than falling and being injured or dead would have been. My uncle is one of those guys though that will climb without being attached to the tree and only connects once at height. Scares the hell out of me to watch every time
 
I would guess very view do it correctly....I'd say the vast majority I've seen out on public land using climbers (almost everybody here.in pine tree land) don't use a harness at all and the one that do even fewer advance tree strap/harness as they climb
 
Ro
This thread has taken a turn into "ropes = danger", which I think is a weird direction.

One because I am truly skeptical from my own personal use that sticks/linesman are safer than being tied in from the ground. Linesman is a work position system and not a fall arrest system, and I would bet money the majority of guys climbing with sticks are not attaching a tether from the ground and advancing it as the climb.

And two, because we don't have any data to support that rope climbing had anything to do with this death. I have heard far more stories here of people having near misses from sticks kicking out than I have of a rope system failing. We don't know how Dane was climbing. We don't really know how we was using his Drey (or if he even was). We don't know his skill level with climbing.

Now there are systems I believe are inherently more dangerous. One sticking (as I see most do it on YouTube) and the use of aiders (especially with one sticking and especially some of the multi-step aiders) seem far more difficult and risk prone than most methods.
ropes equals danger or climbing methods are dangerous in general?
 
Some rope climbing techniques need more training than others. DRT is not the same as SRT (rope walking) is not the same as RADS is not the same as JRB. Using RADS system with a belay device that supports hands free (similar to a Petzl I'd) and a hand ascender is pretty simple and doesn't require complex knot tying. I would argue this style of climbing does not need a whole lot more training/practice than climbing sticks with a lanyard and is much safer. While these systems are borrowed from the climbing arborist world, hunters are not doing most of the complex techniques that require the most training for new arborists (rope walking, redirects, rigging, limb walking, use of saws at height, etc).

Every system of climbing the tree (and transitioning to tether) needs training and practice to be used safely and properly. Most people using these methods in hunting aren't doing that for any method.

This discussion seems no different than weight training. Majority of people could do a bench press safely with little training, while very few could do a 1 RM power clean from the floor safely. The latter requires learning a more complex movement and should be gradually loaded. Both are weight training exercises. I see lots of people in the gym loading up a bar and then using crappy technique. This is like using a more technical climbing method before learning all the nuances of climbing. It’s not the method, but the user, who makes it safe/unsafe based on their experience/training. (i.e., guns don’t kill people….) As the sport grows you’re going to have a greater number of inexperienced saddle hunters which will increase the likelihood of a bad result.


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Now you've hurt my feelings you big meanie. (Mocksob . . . Mocksob) :tearsofjoy:

In reality you're right. However as a 60 year old I'm all too aware that I don't heal like I used to. With that in mind I'm a lot more cautious and think things through a lot more than I did when I was in my "indestructible" younger years.

Yes, I'm old and overweight but I account for it in making smaller moves, forgoing some of the more difficult trees and, most of all, sticking with a system I am very comfortable and experienced with.

I believe in most cases the serious issues arise when something relatively minor happens followed by that initial sense of panic and the bad snap decisions that follow. The best thing that you can do when something happens is pause and regain your composure before deciding on a next step. If you make a poor choice under stress you can easily compound your problems.
As true in saddle hunting as it is with Flying! Don't react out of panic. Use sound decision making. If you've had a stressful night/morning, don't go up. Save it for another day.

PS, also trying not to take offense at the 60 comment because I plan to be up trees until I'm 90, God willing.
 
Some rope climbing techniques need more training than others. DRT is not the same as SRT (rope walking) is not the same as RADS is not the same as JRB. Using RADS system with a belay device that supports hands free (similar to a Petzl I'd) and a hand ascender is pretty simple and doesn't require complex knot tying. I would argue this style of climbing does not need a whole lot more training/practice than climbing sticks with a lanyard and is much safer. While these systems are borrowed from the climbing arborist world, hunters are not doing most of the complex techniques that require the most training for new arborists (rope walking, redirects, rigging, limb walking, use of saws at height, etc).

Every system of climbing the tree (and transitioning to tether) needs training and practice to be used safely and properly. Most people using these methods in hunting aren't doing that for any method.
I misread this earlier. You are correct RADS is not super complicated but it still requires a lot of practice for a controlled descent and it’s expensive with a lot of moving parts
 
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