Ok i see what your sayinwhy didn’t that Deer that heard your safety duck and bound away immediately upon hearing it?
Ok i see what your sayinwhy didn’t that Deer that heard your safety duck and bound away immediately upon hearing it?
Your mention of 2117 brings back fond memories from my set up in the 80's. An overdraw and arrows cut short to get 180 fps big speed back then. I can add some real world expiernce. I have a short draw length of 26.5",never shot an arrow over 400 grains. I have shot to date 207 deer 56 being bucks. Only a hand full have not been pass throughs by hitting opposite shoulder or those down though the top into the spine. My set up the last 8 years have been a 362 gr. arrow with cheap eBay shwackers that I sharpen up. This set up has taken out about 30 or so. They blow though everything I shoot. I find the trends interesting. It is fun to experiment. At the end of the day find what works for you and practice practice practice. Nice to see another old guy here.If there are any reasonable arguments here that more foc and arrow weight total is not more lethal.....I don't understand how. 40 yrs of archery hunting.....seen speed take over archery hunting.....I even got caught up in it. 55 lbs ....2117 aluminum arrow and 150 grain broadhead....1981. Blew through deer for the most part. I think that sharp broadheads and stiff arrows at least 500gr is a good place for most people to see a difference in performance on ANIMALS. I want to kill and FIND the animal. Sorry if that is strong but I want to hunt and get what I'm hunting for and I remember what I had 40 years ago and I think that we can have a balanced approach to speed and penetration. Oh yeah.....Dr. Ashby has studied this extensively. Just my 2 cents. Have fun!
It seems like the old 2117’s were the most common arrow back in the day. I experimented and used a 2512 with good results. I wanted a stiffer, lighter arrow and it fit the bill. Also it set very well in the prongs on the older arrow rest. I understand the need for heavier arrows when shooting large animals. Even Fred Bear and Howard Hill used heavier arrows when they hunted bear and Elephants. To me its like the old debate over how small a caliber is too small for taking deer or how big a caliber is too big. According to some, there is no way the old Indians could possibly have been efficient at taking deer with their homemade rigs, and yet they were.Your mention of 2117 brings back fond memories from my set up in the 80's. An overdraw and arrows cut short to get 180 fps big speed back then. I can add some real world expiernce. I have a short draw length of 26.5",never shot an arrow over 400 grains. I have shot to date 207 deer 56 being bucks. Only a hand full have not been pass throughs by hitting opposite shoulder or those down though the top into the spine. My set up the last 8 years have been a 362 gr. arrow with cheap eBay shwackers that I sharpen up. This set up has taken out about 30 or so. They blow though everything I shoot. I find the trends interesting. It is fun to experiment. At the end of the day find what works for you and practice practice practice. Nice to see another old guy here.
You can take this as gospel...As a new hunter using only a bow, I am following this. I have read all of ashby and watched a lot of RF. I have also read other stuff, but keep coming back to the ashby reports - I mean he has just killed so many big animals and I am starting a journey into traditional bowhunting.
Just my 2 cents: practice will improve shot placement. I try to slang a few, or more than a few, arrows everyday, from different distances and angles, in my saddle and on the ground, seated, standing, and/or kneeling. I miss some days, and others I shoot until I am tired. That's a benefit of the quarantine, I guess. I know very little about arrows and arrow flight and learning those things from a few youtube videos is sometimes even more confusing, so I picked up a few mentors. Invaluable. I am older than the average "newb" bowhunter (46 years in July), but I think a lot of folks will simply hit the big chain stores and buy what they sell - light arrows and fast bows. That's even the strategy that was used on a THP episode when they were outfitting a new member of their team. Technology sells in the 21st century and the technology to be eeked out of bows seems to be speed (and maybe sound, but seems like speed is advertised everywhere, this is particularly true for crossbows). The speed of sound is about 1100±FPS. Some faster (human) neuronal reflex nerve impulses can reach nearly 400 FPS. Seems to me no matter what's making the noise, if it sounds strange to a prey animal (which may have even faster sympathetic neuronal responses), they are going to respond. I think RF talks about this in several of his videos.
I am going to keep reading, watching, and learning. I haven't injured and not recovered and animal yet (only one season under my belt) and I am trying to do everything in my power to not have that happen or to reduce the incidence of that as best I can.
Thanks for all the info on here guys! Much appreciated!
Your mention of 2117 brings back fond memories from my set up in the 80's. An overdraw and arrows cut short to get 180 fps big speed back then. I can add some real world expiernce. I have a short draw length of 26.5",never shot an arrow over 400 grains. I have shot to date 207 deer 56 being bucks. Only a hand full have not been pass throughs by hitting opposite shoulder or those down though the top into the spine. My set up the last 8 years have been a 362 gr. arrow with cheap eBay shwackers that I sharpen up. This set up has taken out about 30 or so. They blow though everything I shoot. I find the trends interesting. It is fun to experiment. At the end of the day find what works for you and practice practice practice. Nice to see another old guy here.
I like these questions. All the deer I killed with a bow died, and of all the ones that I know died my recovery rate is 100%. Of the 4 or 5 that I wounded I know that a heavy arrow and maximum penetration would have helped in one case for sure, that's enough for me.I always take notes when a killer enters the room. That's a pile of deer!
I have a few questions to maybe sharpen up your point of view so I understand it.
What broadheads did you use prior to the schwacker?
Across those 260+ deer, how many did you miss? How many did you wound and not recover?
Of the ones you wounded/unrecoverable, how many, to the best of your knowledge, was the arrow on a path to hitting vital organs, but bone/lack of penetration prevented that from happening?
What would you say is your average shot distance?
How many deer did you kill beyond 30 yards?
Is it fair to sum up your position as "In sending almost 300 deer to the long sleep, very few occasions arose, if any, where adding 200 grains to my arrow would have changed the outcome."
I always take notes when a killer enters the room. That's a pile of deer!
I have a few questions to maybe sharpen up your point of view so I understand it.
What broadheads did you use prior to the schwacker?
Muzzy 4 blade, rocket steel head, slick trick standard, bear razor head
Across those 260+ deer, how many did you miss? How many did you wound and not recover?
207 deer I'm good for 1 miss a season, When I was younger I would shoot a boat load of deer every year and give them to family and friends. These days I only shoot 5 to 8. getting to old to drag deer out for everyone LOL. I shoot every day out to 100 yards when weather permits if not I have an indoor range in the basement, it is what relaxes me. I never shoot past 30 yards most places I hunt I can't even see that far. Early on in the 80s and early 90s I lost more deer at least 1 or 2 a year. I think that was due to inexperience, bad tracking, not being able to judge distance. It seems I never miss left to right it is always vertical. The modern laser range finder solved that.
Of the ones you wounded/unrecoverable, how many, to the best of your knowledge, was the arrow on a path to hitting vital organs, but bone/lack of penetration prevented that from happening?
Never have I hit bone or shoulder except on exit from quartering away shot.
What would you say is your average shot distance?
20 yards or less
How many deer did you kill beyond 30 yards?
None
Is it fair to sum up your position as "In sending almost 300 deer to the long sleep, very few occasions arose, if any, where adding 200 grains to my arrow would have changed the outcome."
I have been blessed in the hunting department. I live close by to a lot of public land plus for the last 23 years I have been able to take my 8 weeks of vacation all during bow season. that and I have a wife that loves deer meet
That's definitely a nice collection of racks.
Troy “Ranch Fairy” Fowler and Dr. Ed Ashby have been nothing short of revolutionary in my bow hunting. Heavy arrows and fixed blades make sense and have worked for me since i got into them. 1 cow, 2 does, 2 grouse and coyote (not much, easy to penetrate) but none ran more than 25 yards.
The Ashby reports, and Troy, seem to intentionally avoid talking about speed. The 12 fundamentals of penetration talk about some very specific things, and speed isn’t one.
A 600 grain arrow traveling 200 FPS will
NEVER penetrate as far as the same arrow moving, say, 300 FPS. Increasing draw length will kill your form, but getting stronger to pull more weight is free.
Speed, mass, point integrity, point sharpness. If the arrow can find it’s target, I say those are the top 5 factors (all equally important)
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Guys are adding weight to the front and some are able to use the same shafts. I was one who decided to go to a stiffer shaft because I had decided to stay away from any aluminum components. Then I fell in love with the 200gr Masai head and the next thing I knew I was at adding 380gr up front, 690gr. total. I know you'll like the way the heavier arrow shoots. Keep us posted how your build goes.Interesting conversation. Like a lot of people, I'm making the switch to a heavier arrow/high FOC setup this year after years of shooting 400ish gr arrows with Grim Reaper broadheads. This year I'll be somewhere in the 550gr range at hunting weight, probably toting a Slick Trick of some variant.
Guys are adding weight to the front and some are able to use the same shafts. I was one who decided to go to a stiffer shaft because I had decided to stay away from any aluminum components. Then I fell in love with the 200gr Masai head and the next thing I knew I was at adding 380gr up front, 690gr. total. I know you'll like the way the heavier arrow shoots. Keep us posted how your build goes.