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Saddle Death… Stay safe out there.

Crawdaddy4 said:
Did someone say this "someone died rope climbing therefore climbing sticks are safe..." somewhere or are you just preemptively stating we shouldn't fall into this argument? Because I would 100% agree with you. As someone who climbs exclusively with sticks, there is nothing innately safer with them versus other methods. Familiarity and confidence play a big factor in this particular risk assessment. Also, just because a single facet is true concerning one method, does not automatically mean the same facet is not true pertaining to another (e.g., no mutual exclusivity between safety of JRB and climbing sticks).
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When someone says stuff like, this is why I am going go back to sticks, or this is why I don’t rope climb, they are essentially saying the same thing, at least how I interpret it. I wasn’t pointing anyone out specifically, but comments similar to this have already been made. Along with this I also think we would benefit from NOT being so vague. When someone says, “that’s bad, or that’s unsafe, or this is safe,” if it is not followed by an explanation of what makes it safe or unsafe it really doesn’t benefit anyone at all, and only adds to the confusion. Vague comments like that can instill unreasonable confidence as well as unreasonable fear.
 
gcr0003 said:
When someone says stuff like, this is why I am going go back to sticks, or this is why I don’t rope climb, they are essentially saying the same thing, at least how I interpret it. I wasn’t pointing anyone out specifically, but comments similar to this have already been made. Along with this I also think we would benefit from NOT being so vague. When someone says, “that’s bad, or that’s unsafe, or this is safe,” if it is not followed by an explanation of what makes it safe or unsafe it really doesn’t benefit anyone at all, and only adds to the confusion. Vague comments like that can instill unreasonable confidence as well as unreasonable fear.
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I agree. This is one of the reason I feel the forum is more engaging then the Facebook counterpart. As people are more engaged in what is discussed. I just briefly looked at the Facebook group and most are half sentences that does not really contribute to the topics, not saying its all meaningless, but just people tend to quick reply.
 
So correct me if I'm wrong. He was testing a new saddle (Dryad) , He was using JRB ascending / descending system. He was close to ground level. His wife feels that a knife could have saved his life. He was in trouble for at least 20 minutes. Are there more facts that we know of?
 
I’m encouraged that Danes wife has been so transparent in not wanting others to face a similar outcome! Also am thankful for the introspection for all who read this & evaluate their process & personal risk. Out of respect for her loss & his life can we refrain from some of the personal details of this tragedy. This is out there for public consumption & there are going to be details that are unknown, that’s ok. I’d prefer a description of what went wrong by someone that knows rather that pictures after the fact. The short version is you leave the ground & aren’t familiar or capable with your chosen method it can have a terrible outcome & impact others. Not calling anyone out let’s be a bit sensitive of the content/conversation……
 
CooterBrown said:
So correct me if I'm wrong. He was testing a new saddle (Dryad) , He was using JRB ascending / descending system. He was close to ground level. His wife feels that a knife could have saved his life. He was in trouble for at least 20 minutes. Are there more facts that we know of?
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It was not confirmed that he was JRBing. She posted on multiple Facebook groups that he belong to to get the words out, one of the group is JRB Climbing.

Just initial scan of his public posting, seem like the was one sticking in the past. So he might of been trying out the JRB for upcoming? Either way it was some method that must of required rappelling down. Or else the hunter that came to his assistance might of just use the stick he was using to help?
 
Bigterp said:
I’m encouraged that Danes wife has been so transparent in not wanting others to face a similar outcome! Also am thankful for the introspection for all who read this & evaluate their process & personal risk. Out of respect for her loss & his life can we refrain from some of the personal details of this tragedy. This is out there for public consumption & there are going to be details that are unknown, that’s ok. I’d prefer a description of what went wrong by someone that knows rather that pictures after the fact. The short version is you leave the ground & aren’t familiar or capable with your chosen method it can have a terrible outcome & impact others. Not calling anyone out let’s be a bit sensitive of the content/conversation……
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Was that correction for me?
 
Bigterp said:
I’m encouraged that Danes wife has been so transparent in not wanting others to face a similar outcome! Also am thankful for the introspection for all who read this & evaluate their process & personal risk. Out of respect for her loss & his life can we refrain from some of the personal details of this tragedy. This is out there for public consumption & there are going to be details that are unknown, that’s ok. I’d prefer a description of what went wrong by someone that knows rather that pictures after the fact. The short version is you leave the ground & aren’t familiar or capable with your chosen method it can have a terrible outcome & impact others. Not calling anyone out let’s be a bit sensitive of the content/conversation……
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I think you are right. Space for the family at this time of their life very important. Again, prayers to them and to all of us. My last post on this thread.
 
HuumanCreed said:
It was not confirmed that he was JRBing. She posted on multiple Facebook groups that he belong to to get the words out, one of the group is JRB Climbing.

Just initial scan of his public posting, seem like the was one sticking in the past. So he might of been trying out the JRB for upcoming? Either way it was some method that must of required rappelling down. Or else the hunter that came to his assistance might of just use the stick he was using to help?
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My thought process is if she felt that a knife could have saved him and that he was near ground level than his stick( if he was using one) would have still been on the tree. And near ground level is a relative term. Could be 10 feet up or 3 feet up. Maybe the knife was to free his foot so he could get up righted and wouldn't involve cutting the rope he was hanging from. Used to cut whatever his foot was hung in. so many things can go wrong even if your practicing at near ground level
 
CooterBrown said:
My thought process is if she felt that a knife could have saved him and that he was near ground level than his stick( if he was using one) would have still been on the tree. And near ground level is a relative term. Could be 10 feet up or 3 feet up. Maybe the knife was to free his foot so he could get up righted and wouldn't involve cutting the rope he was hanging from. Used to cut whatever his foot was hung in. so many things can go wrong even if your practicing at near ground level
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My comment here isn’t value add… but man the closer to the ground this situation was, it’s just that much more unexpected, sad, and cautionary.
 
TNSTAAFL said:
For those in the rock climbing community, when there is a fatality, how does information related to it get processed and shared, to improve practice?

I keep hearing us say "we'll never know", but that is unacceptable to me. We HAVE to know. This thread is, understandably, so full of speculation and assumptions.

Since we all guess at the causes and circumstances, we then guess at the solutions and improved safety techniques. I can't imagine the rock cimbing community/industry responds to a fatality with guesses. All safety improvement is good, but we don't add more airbags to cars when someone dies falling down a set of stairs. You laser in on what caused the fall and death and work to fix that specific issue.

Our hearts all break for the family, and we implore each other to be "safe"...but it is entirely unclear why our colleague was being unsafe, beyond the general risk of tree climbing. In fact all I know is that he purportedly was heavily involved in a sub community that is designed to improve the safety of climbing trees. A community in which a recently stated goal is to reduce risk to 1 in a million. What a terribly ironic tragedy.



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Horrible tragedy. I rock climbed for many years prior to saddle hunting, so most of what I do comes from that world. Agree with others here re leg/legs must have been tangled. Whether it was in an aider affixed to a stick, or something else…who knows. Agree re info sharing. Rock climbing community far better with this, but I think the inherent risk of serious injury/death is also more openly talked about there. Community is also larger than saddle community, so that helps. the minute an accident happens, typically somebody is sharing details on Instagram, etc or you find out soon after. Hard to ask a family to do this in the midst of a tragedy, particularly when the furthest thing from their minds is that their loved one is potentially going to die in the woods saddle hunting. So I certainly understand. But agreed this would valuable for all. Recognize your limits. Recognize the risk is real.

Only other factor I would raise for consideration , is that if there was a fall - even a short one - involved here, depending on the force of the fall on a static rope, this individual could have been fairly dazed and injured. Perhaps even a broken bone or two. Enough to call for help and slip into unconsciousness again maybe but even short falls on static rope can turn you to mush. Rock climbers are just ingrained to think this way when they set up anchors, etc. These aren’t dynamic ropes being used in saddle hunting. And for good reason. But the fall factor is a real issue if there is any slack in the system. I was so nervous re a kick out when I started saddle hunting for this very reason. No issue with heights or massive falls on the right rope, but no room for error on saddle side even to move too quickly on your rap and suddenly halt. Go into your basement, put even 6 inches of slack on your static rap rope and fall on it. You’ll see what I mean very quickly.

New to the forum, following this discussion with interest - and sadness. I think a lot of the comments on here are important re changing the way safety incidents are talked about in the community. You all are leading by example, and it will change.


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CooterBrown said:
So correct me if I'm wrong. He was testing a new saddle (Dryad) , He was using JRB ascending / descending system. He was close to ground level. His wife feels that a knife could have saved his life. He was in trouble for at least 20 minutes. Are there more facts that we know of?
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Probably a good guess on the knife, since it was the only thing she mentioned....but nothing definite.

I'd suggest people carry on their body a knife and few others things (whistle, phone, flashlight, way to self rescue).
 
HuumanCreed said:
Mrs. Purcell detailed on Facebook that he was testing out his new Dryad saddle for 1st or 2nd time. That he was only a few feet from the ground. The other hunter was actually able to try to push him up a little to try to release pressure but was not able to. That's why she recommends carrying knife. Because at that height it cutting make sense.

Hmm....all speculations here. But if he was using the Drey's harness for any type of rope climbing, l highly recommend against that.
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This to me is pertinent! Practicing a new system or even new saddle for the first time all alone, and in the woods no less is something that's just not smart. It may seem you have no choice and like the privacy of the woods, but there's gotta be a way to be near someone when testing new stuff and methods! I know I'll be more aware of this in my future endeavors!
 
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Vtbow said:
What can and should be concluded from all this discussion is something I have tried to hit home for a while and I believe has landed on deaf ears:

Technical skills which can lead to yours or others death or serious injury should not be taught through videos, especially as a primary learning source. Experiential education and on-site, hands on learning from trained individuals is the only right way.

The originators of the videos do not know the audience's skill level they are teaching...it could be someone who never has had a harness on in their life, or a 5.10 climber looking to hone their skills. In person lessons can be tweaked and changed for audiences, or prequisite skills tests required. I don't believe you will find a certified instructor "teaching" this level of technical skills in a youtube video. It would be negligent of them to do so in a non-controlled environment where they can't immediately correct their students.

Sticks may not be safer for someone who is skilled and knowledgeable, but the average individual already has the skills to climb a ladder...they have a lot less new skills to learn to climb and descend in the safest manner possible.
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^^^ all this! I said that when guys were using videos and trying to learn to use climbing hooks to climb. There is a skill and technique involved, one toe pointing downward and you go
straight down the tree. Unfortunately a couple you tube videos and people are out buying 600 dollar spikes and talking about how easy it is to modify them
 
DroptineKrazy said:
How in the heck did you survive hanging upside down for 4 1/2 hours?
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The theory is some people can survive up to 14 hours inverted. I’m assuming those people are super skinny and fit. But 14 hours is the maximum estimated survival time based on studies
 
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